JLC 218 entry pallet stone

[Bob Tascione]

Ok…I’m confused again .
William and David, are you both discussing the same subject? Seems like William is talking about removing hairspring collets and David is addressing removing roller tables? Or is it just me in need another Sunday nap?

Bob

[david pierce]

Bob,
Ok, here is my secret technique. This will not work in all situations but I have found that many of the modern wristwatches with the solid modern balance wheels are not rivited. I first select the correct slot size for the roller and place the balance wheel in the slot. Then I take the correct punch size that will clear the pivot and place it over the pivot resting on the cone of the staff. Then I push (not hammer) on the staff until the roller is released. The balance will drop down into the tool base and the roller will remain in the slot. Then I take the roller out and place it in a small parts tray. A milk bottle cap is just as good. Next I take the staff with the hairspring still attached and select a hole in the Platax plate that will allow the hairspring roller seat to pass through but as close as possible. Then I position the balance wheel in the hole with the hairspring up. Next I take the same punch and place it over the pivot resting on the cone of the staff. A few gentile taps with a small watchmaker hammer will push the staff through without damaging the hairspring. This removes the hairspring and collar without trying to place a couple of tools under the spring. These watch parts are so small I cannot see them without magnafication and I have mulitated several hairsprings trying to pry the collars off. With my method they come off undamaged. With a Platax tool NEVER hammer a part in the slot but it is OK to hammer when the part is in one of the holes.
david

[gerene]

David, I looked at the “Watch repair channel” video and I like the Platax tool. I then had a look at Cousins for this tool but it seems to be obsolete . I might try looking for a used one but I took note of your remark about the possibility for a damaged plate.
I will try to make the pry tool Bob shows in his staffing video or try the screwdriver method. I am still reading up on disassembling the balance and I have to confess: the more I read, the more I get confused
I want to avoid damaging the hairspring.
I do have this roller remover which should do the job nicely. I never used it, but some time ago I came across this one and picked it up .

Jan

[Bob Tascione]

Thanks David,
I see now. This technique will work well with the modern Glucydur balances. One thing though. When you say

This will not work in all situations but I have found that many of the modern wristwatches with the solid modern balance wheels are not rivited.

I’m not sure what modern watches not using riveted staffs you’re referring to. Maybe friction staffs are now being used on newer calibers that I’m not aware of. Do you know some of the movements using these staffs? The staffs I’m familiar with are riveted to the Glucydur balance. When you replace these with new staffs they do need to be riveted onto the balance. It’s just that the Glucydur balances are hard enough to break the rivet off without the staff causing damage to the hole when pushing through.

Bob

[gerene]

@david pierce wrote:

Jan,
There are a number of ways to remove collars from a staff. Mark Lovick shows at least two ways. One is with a Bergeon removal tool, another is with a Bergeon Platax tool. Steffan Pahlow has a couple of techniques that he uses with his removal tools. There is a Perplxr video showing how to remove a collar with a razor blade. Another way is to use either prybars or watchmaker screwdrivers. As long as the parts are not damaged, they are all valid techniques.
david

Thanks David, I will have a look at those videos as well. Never hurts to have as much information as possible.

[willofiam]

Hey guys, some thoughts if we are talking about the same thing? the only thing I would caution is doing anything to the balance ie. removing the roller table, unless the hairspring is already taken off. The most fragile piece (hairspring) can be such a job fixing, finding new or even used. I have only dabbled on some old really rough shape watches to fine tune some of my techniques. The hairspring should easily come off with just a touch of pressure (at least thats my experience) no need to use a hammer, finger pressure should be sufficient, if you have to tap on some of these tools start small, like with the handle end of a tweezers (hope that makes sense). Also, a platax tool seems to be rather expensive in my book, and hard to find used, maybe I will find one for super cheap tomorrow???? Jan, fun little project making that hairspring removal tool, I think the one I made a couple of years ago was a bit too thick, I could have really thinned it down quite a bit and it would have still functioned well. Remember about using the hairspring collet slot to remove a hairspring as DeCarle or Fried mentions in their book as the direction of force is up and away from that fragile hairspring, something to consider, but as I said earlier my small watch techniques are limited. Have a great day, William

[Bob Tascione]

Hi William,
Yes you and David were talking about the same thing. You had asked David what method he used. His method is common among those working on modern wristwatches using Glucydor balances. The Platex tool isn’t necessary for his technique but is a good addition to the tool box for those doing a lot of modern watch movements as it makes easy removal of the roller table possible without having to remove the hairspring.
You wrote:

the only thing I would caution is doing anything to the balance ie. removing the roller table, unless the hairspring is already taken off

which is definitely the way to go when working on other types of balances…at least it is for me. The technique that David uses though keeps the hairspring safe and makes the staffing operation quick and easy. Glucydor balances are easy to recognize and are the norm for modern balances. David also mentions that many of the balances don’t use riveted staffs. These friction staffs would also be good candidates for his method. I’m not keeping up enough on the modern changes so I’m unaware of modern calibers using friction type staffs and would like to know what manufacturers are going this direction.

Bob

[gerene]

Thanks guys. William I am definetly going to make the little tool. Looks indeed like a fun little project. Thing is that I may not have much time in the coming weeks. My grandchildren (living in Holland) are coming over for the rest of the week and they have absolute priority . Then next week we will have a new bathroom installed and my wife is already panicking . Not that I have to do much on the bathroom myself, but….
Probably will find time to do some reading up and get something done in my workshop 🙄

[david pierce]

Jan,
I looked up Cousin’s UK and their page did indeed have the tool listed as OBOSLETE. It is hard it imagine that such a useful tool would end up this way. I then looked up L’OUTIL de A a Z BERGEON SA and the tool was on their PDF file. Maybe you can contact BERGEON and find out what happened. Ebay has a used one for sale that looks like it was pulled out of the bottom of a swimming pool and then left out in the rain for a couple of years. It is item #321338241567. They are asking $200.00 dollars for the item but I would not buy it at that price.
david

[david pierce]

:geek: :geek: Bob,
I did not know about this technique being used before. I came up with it because the space between the balance and the hairspring assemblys was so tight I could not get anything between them that had enough strength; without disturbing the hairspring and balance wheel. Everything I tried would twist and distort the hairspring out of flat. The larger bimetal balance wheels did not have this clearance problem and I was able to pry the hairspring assemblys off of the staff. Also, bimetal balance wheels have only two arms and the hairspring collar can also be accessed from the roller side with a pinching device and then pushed off. I have a special pair of pinching tweezers that is made for this purpose but these only work when the balance wheel has two arms. I also have a pair of BERGEON pry bars that are supposed to work but they too did not work for me on the monometal balances wheels.
With modern manufacturing techniques these parts can be manufactured to tighter tolerances and there is no longer a practical need for the staking operation. When I put a modern produced movement on a timing machine it became obvious to me why watches are now made this way. The low production high end expensive watches will probably continue to assemble the balances wheels this way but in the majority of movements this step will probably be phased out if it has not been done already. :geek:
david

[david pierce]

William,
With the Platax tool it makes no difference if the hairspring assembly or the roller is removed first. The roller can be safely removed with no danger to the hairspring. What is really nice is the roller remains in the slot and doesn’t shoot across the room. The balance wheel and hairspring just drop into the bottom of the tool. In my case I remove the roller first so I can select the smallest size hole that will allow the seat of the balance staff to pass through. This provides support at the center of the balance wheel and prevents the arms from bending during the removal process.
david

[willofiam]

Hey David and Bob, Because I am not familiar on these types of movements could you explain. Are these balances and staffs riveted or not. It would be important to know. If not I am wondering if you have a list or a sample of such a setup of the modern movements that they are in as this would help understand whats being said here and give insight on the movements to look for that use these no-rivet staffs. William

[david pierce]

William, 🙄
Actually this is not an easy question to answer. Even if you had a complete listing you could end up with a staff that had been staked due to a repair. Newer watch movements no longer use brass for the balance wheel material and are better able to survive the removal of a staff that has been staked. Also, the older staffs were produced on machines that were cam controlled and were not able to produce the manufacturing consistancy that the modern CNC machines can now produce. This is probably why the older movements used split collars. This was good news for the repair guys because the old split collars could be twisted off with a small bladed tool. This was also good news if a new staff had to be made. If it could be turned to a reasonable aproximation the split collar could adjust to the size difference. The tolerance of the staff journals made on modern machinery can now be consistantly held within .001mm or .0001 inches so split collars are no longer necessary. If someone can achieve this type of tolerance with a graver on a consistant basis I will be very impressed. I know that I can’t. 😮
david

[arutha]

@david pierce wrote:

The tolerance of the staff journals made on modern machinery can now be consistantly held within .001mm or .0001 inches so split collars are no longer necessary. If someone can achieve this type of tolerance with a graver on a consistant basis I will be very impressed. I know that I can’t. 😮
david

Thankfully when making a balance staff you don’t need to achive that sort of tolerance. That form of production might be ok when its all being cnc controlled but what about the poor repairer who has to replace a broken balance staff later down the line? It is all well and good making these advancements but sooner or later, as is already happening with most mechanical things, the repair man will be out of a job and a “fitter” will take his place, and once the new and used parts supply dries up then that product becomes obsolete.
Paul.

[willofiam]

@david pierce wrote:

If someone can achieve this type of tolerance with a graver on a consistant basis I will be very impressed.

Not if I make 10,000 in a row….NO WAY, but if all yah need is 1 I may just get lucky

@david pierce wrote:

Even if you had a complete listing you could end up with a staff that had been staked due to a repair

without getting too technical , you mean riveted? maybe thats the question, when looking at these are you able to determine how the staff is held to the balance or how it should be to begin with? determining friction fit or not do you not see a undercut for the rivet? I see in the “American Pocket and wrist watch balance staff interchangeability list” (I think you have one) that the Hamilton friction staffs are identified by a groove on the lower hub, maybe not so anymore with the staffs your talking about. but if someone were changing one of these staffs it would be very important to know. So I am asking how are you determining that these are not riveted staffs? please explain and thank you. William

[Author]

Posts