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July 13, 2014 at 7:00 am #58517
Congratulations Jan!
When in doubt always follow Fried’s or DeCarle’s advice. They were Gods to me when I started out. If not for them I would never have made it.
I find that the biggest danger when using a warmer is over heating or burning the shellac rendering it useless. I rarely use the clamping device but rather set the stone in place using a tweezer to hold the lever and a pointed object to adjust the jewel. I also put everything in place before applying heat to the warmer. This is easier for me but more dangerous as there’s always the danger of shooting past the melting temperature and burning the shellac holding the other stone in place. Having a thinner warmer seems to give me more control over the heating up process. The thicker plate retains the heat longer and if too much heat is applied it has more time to transfer into the pallet and burn the shellac. The thinner plate will cool a bit quicker and possibly save the day. At least that’s my thought…which could be way off target lol.Take care Jan,
BobJuly 14, 2014 at 6:07 am #58518Infrared thermometers can be purchased now at a fairly reasonable cost. With that you can monitor the pallet warmer temperature down to one degree of accuracy. This is far more accuracy than anyone would need to melt shellac but it could certainly make the process more controllable.
davidAugust 8, 2014 at 7:34 am #58520Well after my vacation I started working on this movement again. The pallets are now seated correctly, thanks everybody for their advice.
There seems to have been some “tweaking” done on this movement before me, at least the pallet fork was not the way it should be. I don’t think that this happened all by itself.. but I had to bend it a little to get the escape wheel tooth to clear the entry pallet stone. I used the method as explained in De Carles Practical Watch Repairing, i.e. peening the fork on the side it has to bend to. Did it very carefully and yes the escapement action does look good now.
Up to the next problem which is the balance staff. I didn’t realize this when I was cleaning, but when I tried to install the balance there was way too much endshake and the balance wouldn’t turn in a plane but instead wobbled somewhat. Some closer look revealed that the lower pivot was broken (at least that’s what I think).
I never tried to replace a balance staff, so I am up for learning something new again . I have searched a bit on the net to see if I could find a replacement staff for this movement but no luck so far.
I guess I will have to make one myself which for me looks like a major undertaking. Any tips and help are more than welcome.Jan
August 8, 2014 at 1:45 pm #58519Jan,
the hardest part is getting everything off of the old balance staff. Seriously, just take your time and keep at it until you get it right. Don’t be hard on yourself if you mess up the first few, it happens to all of us and i still over cut the odd bit now and again.
You could also try to re-pivot the old staff first before attempting to cut a new staff? I did a re-pivot on a small fly today of .6mm and I have watched my teacher re-pivot a cylinder which was about .3mm. Just a thought?
Whatever you decide Jan we are right behind you
Paul.August 8, 2014 at 4:36 pm #58521Jan,
Before removing the roller and the hairspring collars make sure you mark their locations on the balance wheel. If you fail to do this you will have some adjustment problems when you reassemble it.
davidAugust 8, 2014 at 5:32 pm #58522Jan, looks like you have one of those progressive problem pieces, the more you fix, the more problems arise
Just as a caution, be sure that there are no other marks on the balance prior to you marking the HS and roller jewel position, it can be confusing if you don’t notice them, trust me 😆
The staff does look like the tip broke off, how are the balance hole and cap jewels?
August 9, 2014 at 3:00 am #58523@Arutha wrote:
Jan,
the hardest part is getting everything off of the old balance staff. Seriously, just take your time and keep at it until you get it right. Don’t be hard on yourself if you mess up the first few, it happens to all of us and i still over cut the odd bit now and again.
You could also try to re-pivot the old staff first before attempting to cut a new staff? I did a re-pivot on a small fly today of .6mm and I have watched my teacher re-pivot a cylinder which was about .3mm. Just a thought?
Whatever you decide Jan we are right behind you
Paul.Thanks for your advice Paul, indeed the first part is removing everything from the balance staff. I have put it away for a few hours now, to read up on how to do that. I don’t want to damage the hairspring.
I like the idea of repivotting and will certainly give it a thought! Don’t think that drilling such a small hole in the staff will be easyAugust 9, 2014 at 3:04 am #58524@david pierce wrote:
Jan,
Before removing the roller and the hairspring collars make sure you mark their locations on the balance wheel. If you fail to do this you will have some adjustment problems when you reassemble it.
davidThanks for your advice David, I will certainly do that. Good you reminded me!
August 9, 2014 at 3:09 am #58525@Chris Mabbott wrote:
Jan, looks like you have one of those progressive problem pieces, the more you fix, the more problems arise
Just as a caution, be sure that there are no other marks on the balance prior to you marking the HS and roller jewel position, it can be confusing if you don’t notice them, trust me 😆
The staff does look like the tip broke off, how are the balance hole and cap jewels?
Yep Chris, when I started on this one I thought it would be a straitforward disassemble, clean, reassemble and oil kind of thing… but no, it keeps me going.
Well, it is a hobby for me, so I can afford spending time on it.I will have a look and make sure my markings are clear to me. I have been there where you wonder which of the markings was supposed to be the good one! 😳
The first thing I did after seeing the broken pivot was checking the balance and cap jewels, but nothing there!
Thanks for your advice!
August 9, 2014 at 3:55 am #58526A great tip from David, just make sure you can tell your marks from any that were previously there.
Paul.August 9, 2014 at 3:15 pm #58527Jan,
One more thing. In addition to Bob’s lessons on staffing, the WATCH REPAIR CHANEL on Youtube has a video covering replacing a balance staff. He takes a balance wheel with a broken pivot and steps through the entire staff replacement process. He uses tools and techniques that you may or may not use, but you can adjust the procedure to suit your situation.
davidAugust 9, 2014 at 11:00 pm #58528Thanks David, I will watch those videos. I decided to be well documented before I will jump in. Knowing what to do and more important what not might help me to avoid destroying the hairspring or the balance.
Jan
August 10, 2014 at 1:52 pm #58529Jan,
There are a number of ways to remove collars from a staff. Mark Lovick shows at least two ways. One is with a Bergeon removal tool, another is with a Bergeon Platax tool. Steffan Pahlow has a couple of techniques that he uses with his removal tools. There is a Perplxr video showing how to remove a collar with a razor blade. Another way is to use either prybars or watchmaker screwdrivers. As long as the parts are not damaged, they are all valid techniques.
davidAugust 10, 2014 at 2:21 pm #58530Jan, I like to use the small screwdrivers or the pry tool Bob shows in his videos. Not too long ago I may have broke the collar using the pry tool but not sure, could have already been cracked. since then I have been using the screwdrivers because I feel I have more control although I am working on larger size pocket watches…besides that, making a new collet cost me some time but payed me back with learning how and setting up the tooling for the job.
David, what method do you prefer using?
have fun guys, WilliamAugust 10, 2014 at 3:35 pm #58531William,
The Platax tool wins hands down because it is the least likely way to damage the part. The tool has a variety of slots and holes in a rotary plate to hold the balance assembly. Unfortunatly many people misuse the tool by placing the balance assembly in the slots and then pounding the collars off with a hammer. When you see a used Platax tool for sale many of the slots have been bashed out due to misuse. New Platax wheels can be purchased from Cousins UK and other suppliers but they are so expensive you would be better off buying a new tool. Pocket watches are large compared to wrist watches so your margin for error is greatly reduced in a smaller size watch. You can get away with more minor slip ups with a pocket watch than you can with a wrist watch. Since wrist watches are mostly what I work on (butcher) I feel that the Platax tool is more of a necessity than an option. My second choice is the Bergeon design removal tool. I have also used the tool that is a metal block with two formed springs comming out of it but it launched more than one watch part into a low earth orbit. There is also a Rex roller removal tool but I like the Platax tool the best.:geek:
david -
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