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  • #54121
    tmac1956
    Participant

      Arutha:

      I replaced the bottom balance staff jewel. Thank goodness it was set-n with screws and wasn’t rubbed-in. I still haven’t figured those out yet. Lucily, none of the others holding the components involved so far were cracked or otherwise needed replacing.

      Thanks!!!
      Tom

      #54122
      arutha
      Participant

        Ok, that rules out a possible jewel problem.
        Going back to what William suggested, have you tried putting the balance wheel in? It doesn’t always make a movement trip through by putting pressure on the third/forth wheel, it only takes a slightly worn pivot hole to bind things up and stop that happening because you will never get the exact amount of pressure through that the train will provide. It is only my opinion but I would be more inclined to put everything back in the watch and then try and deduce where the problem lies, just double check all the pivot holes/jewel holes are good, it only takes a fraction of wear to lock a wheel and pinion together and pushing the 3rd wheel with pegwood could be whats causing it? I am assuming you have double checked for bent pivots too?
        Paul.

        #54123
        tmac1956
        Participant

          Arutha:

          I have checked the jewels under magnification of 3X which isn’t that strong. Since I do have vision issues, I think I will take it back apart and look the at jewels and the pivots again. When I looked at everything in the beginning, I found a cracked jewel balance jewel and a tooth missing from the third wheel but the pivots looked good with little scoring – the microscope might reveal a different story. I have put the balance in, but power doesn’t seem to be getting to the escape wheel.

          I’ll take another shot at it this weekend.

          Thanks everyone for hanging in there with me!

          Tom

          #54124
          david pierce
          Participant

            Tom,
            Leaving out the main spring barrel gear, assemble the gear train into the pilar plates. Next, rotate the train by gently pushing on the center wheel. Remove the gears one at a time from the escape wheel back repeating the process each time. When the train turns, you should have the problem isolated. When this happened to me it was usually due to a pivot that was not in the jewel hole but it could be any number of issues.
            david

            #54125
            arutha
            Participant

              Tom,
              3x magnification is not going to help much, I would be using a 10x loupe for pivot inspection on a watch and especially checking for pivot hole wear.
              Good luck, I am sure we will get there and Davids advice above this post should work well :)
              Paul.

              #54126
              tmac1956
              Participant

                All:

                That sounds like a good approach. I try all of that.

                Thanks!
                Tom

                #54127
                tmac1956
                Participant

                  All:

                  I took everything apart and checked the jewels and pivots for the gear train under 15x magnification. Everything looks good. Following David’s advice, I assembled the train without the mainspring barrel and the pallet fork, and it spins just fine – very smooth. However, when I put the pallet fork in it locks. Now, I can adjust the banking pins wide open on the out positions and it will (sometimes) spin, but when it stops, you have to giggle the train to get it going again. Based upon the process off elimination, the problem appears to lie in the pivot fork. There’s less than 5 degrees of side shake with the pivot setting in the bottom jewel and when the fork cock is in place the pivot fork moves smoothly without much slop in either axis.

                  It seems to me that it might be the interface between the escape wheel and the pivot fork jewels. I replaced three of those and none of them made a difference.
                  I have also installed three different escape wheel – no difference.

                  Any thoughts? There’s obviously something going on that I just don’t understand. I know it’s all part of the learning process and I thanks everyone hear for babying me through this.

                  Thanks!
                  Tom

                  #54128
                  david pierce
                  Participant

                    Tom,
                    You have isolated the problem. A few places to look at this point are the pallet jewels for angle and length. The jewel on the long side of the pallet (right side) should have a more severe angle than the jewel on the short side of the pallet (right side). You must step through the movements one index at a time and observe the process. Check for the proper amount of drop and lock and make sure the angles on the pallet jewels are correct. If they are reversed, it will not work. Also, make sure the escape wheel has not been damaged. Each tooth of the wheel should be exactly like every other tooth in size and space between the teeth. if the banking pins are too restricting, they will not allow the pallet to perform properly.
                    david

                    #54129
                    tmac1956
                    Participant

                      David:

                      I was affraid that would be the problem. Oh well… there’s always something new to learn – I guess that’s one reason why I’m attracted to Horology.

                      As to stepping through the the escape wheel pallet fork one index at a time, the assembly won’t move off of the teeth upon which the fork is initially installed. I can, however, see the amount of drop and lock between those two teeth so I guess I’ll have to go with that. The escape wheel is in good shape and isn’t bent or distorted.

                      I suppose I’ll be using the old pallet warmer afterall. ;)

                      Thanks!
                      Tom

                      #54130
                      david pierce
                      Participant

                        Tom,
                        If you have another movement of the same type that works, it will make the job easier. I looked at the photo of your movement and the position of the right jewel is a bit unclear to me. With a second movement that does work you can trace through the escape and pallet movements simultaniously and check for differences in spacing and angles. It will also give you a more clear mental picture of where you want to go with the repair and adjustment of the non working movement. Keep in mind that this is a basic cam driven mechanical lever system. The cam is the escape wheel, the cam follower is the pallet jewel and the lever is the pallet arm. The angle of the pallet jewel is crutial in transferring the force from the escape wheel to the lever arm (pallet arm), then to the roller jewel and finally to the balance wheel to wind up the balance spring. After the pallet fork has done its job, it is held in the proper position by the banking pin until the spring forces the flywheel (balance wheel) back in the other direction, the roller jewel hits the fork and unlocks the latch. Getting everything to work properly is messy because any adjustment made will affect the other adjustments.
                        david

                        #54131
                        willofiam
                        Moderator

                          Hey Tom, just out of curiosity before changing the angles on your pallet jewels, what happens when you put the balance assembly in?, does it run? have a great day, William

                          #54132
                          tmac1956
                          Participant

                            William:

                            It won’t even run then. I’ve tried just about everything hoping that I wouldn’t need to start adjusting those jewels. Alas…. ;)

                            Thanks for asking!
                            Tom

                            #54133
                            tmac1956
                            Participant

                              All:

                              Ok… Before I start adjusting therse stones, I thought I’d post a couple of pictures showing the poisition of the pallet stones. I took the pallet fork cock off so things could be seen better.

                              [attachment=0:2w92xsi7]Fork_Inside_Pin.gif[/attachment:2w92xsi7]

                              [attachment=1:2w92xsi7]Fork_Outside_Pin.gif[/attachment:2w92xsi7]
                              If you zoom in a little, you can see things a little better. Your thoughts?

                              Thanks!
                              Tom

                              #54134
                              david pierce
                              Participant

                                Tom,
                                Your work is cut out for you on this one. There are a lot of factors that are involved in getting the adjustments tweeked in. The spacing of the pallet fork, the position of the banking pins, the roller jewel clearance on the forks, the locking angle, the pallet jewel angle, and so on and so on. Unfortunately, any adjustment made will affect the other adjustments. I think Bob may have to step in on this one because I am sure that he has a procedure worked out from his many years of doing this. The banking pins would have given a starting reference point but since they have been moved the procedure must start from scratch. This will certainly be an incredible learning experience.
                                david

                                #54135
                                Bob Tascione
                                Moderator

                                  Hi Tom,
                                  I can briefly describe the way I go about adjusting the stones. Not sure if my technique is any better or even as good as other methods out there but it works well and fast for me.

                                  There’s a lot that can be written here but I would most likely just confuse you and myself by repeating things you probably already know. I’ll list a few main points here and will leave them open to questions and suggestions that you or others may have about the procedures mentioned. I’ll try to monitor the thread today so I can respond quickly in case questions arise.

                                  Note: Make sure to check the following adjustments on ALL escape wheel teeth. This is very important as a distorted tooth or wheel is always possible as is a bent escape wheel pivot. This can really mess things up.

                                  1. Adjusting a stones depth for lock will also affect the lock on the opposite stone. Example: if the entry stone is moved outward for more lock the exit stone locking will also increase.

                                  2. Adjusting a stone depth for lock will affect the ‘drop’ (shake) on the ‘opposite stone’. I normally measure drop by measuring the distance between the back of the last discharged escape tooth toe and the discharge corner of the stone. Example would be: when entry stone has locked escape wheel tooth the exit stone has just allowed a tooth to escape…the distance from the stone to the back of this tooth (tip of toe). I find it easier to visually measure this distance than any other way. These distances must be equal for both entry and exit and is determined by the interplay of adjustments between entry and exit stones. Not nearly as difficult as it sounds here.

                                  3. I always start by first checking for roller jewel and safety clearances. If all’s well I then I adjust either the entry or exit banking pin in to the point where the roller jewel just ‘barely’ clears the pallet slot and horns (check on all escape wheel teeth). I then leave the banking pin in that position until the stones have been set in place. Do the same with the opposite banking pin. After stone adjustments are made the slide can be adjusted by moving the banking pins out the required amount (I’ll explain briefly in following paragraph).

                                  4. Banking pins can be used to adjust the ‘total lock’ but not to be used for adjusting the lock (where tooth hits -drop- on locking face) only. Total lock equals the lock (depth) plus the ‘run to banking’ or slide. Usually about 1 1/2 to 2 degrees of lock to 3/4 to one degree of slide (slide equal to 1/3 of total locking). Radius of angle arc is from pallet arbor center to locking corner of stone. Perfect in theory but difficult to measure this angle without using special tool or comparator. Visually comparing the lock under high mag. to a good running watch with good action will usually work well.

                                  I know I’ve only touched on the process here (actually just a quick outline) so please feel free to ask for a more detailed explanation on any of these and/or other points. Also writing this on the fly so if the terminology is confusing (or wrong) please let me know and I’ll try to fix it.

                                  Bob

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