16 Elgin blues… – Page 2 – Watch Repair Clock Repair

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September 14, 2013 at 5:10 am #54106
tmac1956
Participant
Bob:

I didn’t post the interim but here’s what seems to be happening. I did go back an turn the banking pins back in (actually several times) and, using the Chicago School of Watchmaking as a guide, tested the train for movement and when it was still locked up I would turn the pins ever so slightly out a tiny amount and repeated the process. The pin location in the pictures is the spot where I ended up getting at least some movement of the train. However, its still not completly free. With the pins in what would be the inner-most location the R stone appears to have too much lock and the train won’t budge.

I will attempt to get a few pictures today using the AMScope and post them. Hopefully, these will better depict what I am attempting to describe.

Thanks for all of the advice.
Tom
September 14, 2013 at 7:25 am #54107
randy
Participant
Tom.
I’m seeing the same thing as Bob..kind of shadowed, but the one stone looks to be too long.
Do you have one in the other pallet forks that’s a bit shorter, that you could swap out ?
Can you shorten the existing stone ?

The only other thing that comes to mind is that something is binding when you add the pallet fork/pallet bridge assembly.
When you are adding them back into the movement, can you get the movement to free up more if you back off the bridge screw, and /or does the movement run when you have the bridge on “loose”, and it stops when you run the screw down tight ?
I’ve seen where a warped bridge or plate, or an out of alignment plate jewel has caused a watch to stop.

Thanks for the pics !!!
Randy
September 14, 2013 at 9:33 am #54108
willofiam
Moderator
Hey Tom, is this happening, (the train locking up) when the balance is in the watch? I think I remember you saying it was not in, Have a great day. William
September 14, 2013 at 10:38 am #54109
Bob Tascione
Moderator
Hi all,
I’m not able to see the stones well enough on my screen so will go by what Randy is saying about possibly being too long. I think I would do as he suggests and try swapping out with the other pallets you have on hand. If you get the same results then would feel that the stone settings are fine and the problem lies somewhere else. The pallet cock being tilted or off a bit will also cause this problem as Randy suggests. Might try messing with it a bit. There are some other possibilities too. One is too much slop between the hole jewels of the pallet arbor pivots AND hole jewels/escape wheel pivots. Also check for an out of round escape wheel. This is more common than you might think. If you have another escape wheel that you can try might be worth the effort. It’s a process of elimination but you’ll get there Tom!
Good luck and let us know,
Bob
September 15, 2013 at 8:35 am #54110
david pierce
Participant
Tom,
There must be some clearance between the roller jewel and the forks of the pallet arm. If not, the roller jewel will wedge in between the forks and stop the mechanism. Check the clearance under your microscope.
david
September 17, 2013 at 5:53 am #54111
tmac1956
Participant
All:

Just to reiterate… the locking is occurring without the balance wheel in place. I did swap out the escape wheel and installed another pallet fork with some space behind the jewels for adjustment (should I need to do it) so I won’t have to grind down or replace the pallet fork jewels.

I checked the pallet fork movement and there doesn’t appear to be too much play in it’s movement. After fiddling with the banking pins for a few hours (again), I finally, got the train to move – however, once you get it going and then stop, it’ll lock up again and it takes a little more fiddling with the train to get it going again.

Frustrated (sound familiar?), I assembled it and as I was getting ready to case it, I noticed that the fourth wheel shaft was slightly bent as it stuck through the plate. I have a few more, so I’ll try to replace that component this weekend.

Thanks for all of the suggestions. I’ll check the balance jewel clearance, after I get past this issue.

Later,
Tom
September 17, 2013 at 6:42 am #54112
willofiam
Moderator
Tom, Maybe I am misunderstanding the type of blues you have , but, in order for the train to keep running the balance assembly has to be put in, without the balance the escapement will lock up as your describing, it will not keep running. You can manually move the lever to check the lock, inside and outside shake, run to banking, ect…before putting the balance in, the lever should lock and run up the jewel a bit to banking and stay there unless you manually move it to the other side. hope this makes sense, William
September 17, 2013 at 6:59 am #54113
tmac1956
Participant
William:

In the past I have been able to take a piece of peg wood, apply a little pressure on the third or fourth wheel, and move the train. However, this mechanism doesn’t do that without moving the wheel back and forth – eventually it will get going, but once you stop, it won’t move again until you fiddle with the gears. Perhaps, I misunderstand a seminal concept here… just going on previous experience. In the past the movements that I’ve worked on moved freely this way.

Thanks!
Tom
September 17, 2013 at 9:05 am #54114
willofiam
Moderator
Hey Tom, I was hesitant about what I suggested because I wasnt sure of all you had done, If it were me I would put the original escape wheel and lever back in (if they are o.k.), check the relationship of it all making adjustments according to your book, put the balance in and see what happens. I could very well be wrong but in my thinking but I believe the balance is key to function if everything else is good. hope your day is filled with joy. William
September 17, 2013 at 10:54 am #54115
tmac1956
Participant
@willofiam wrote:

Hey Tom, I was hesitant about what I suggested because I wasnt sure of all you had done, If it were me I would put the original escape wheel and lever back in (if they are o.k.), check the relationship of it all making adjustments according to your book, put the balance in and see what happens. I could very well be wrong but in my thinking but I believe the balance is key to function if everything else is good. hope your day is filled with joy. William

William:

Yea… the original pallet fork has a broken fork, but I can put it back in with the original escape wheel to see if it fixes the locking problem.

Now… why didn’t I think of that?

Thanks!
Tom
September 17, 2013 at 11:18 am #54116
willofiam
Moderator
Somewhere I think it says, “2 heads are better than one” OR “by the counsel of many, make war.” Have fun, William
September 21, 2013 at 1:40 pm #54117
tmac1956
Participant
All.

Ok… I put the old parts back in and I’m having the same locking problem. I put it under my AmScope and the pallet fork doesn’t appear to be mis-aligned or wobbly even when I put a little vertical pressure on it. The teeth on the escape wheel seem to be interfacing well with the pallet fork jewels in the same horizontal plan.

This one has be befuddled (which isn;t very difficult).

Thanks!
Tom
September 22, 2013 at 11:27 am #54118
arutha
Participant
I read in your first post on this subject the watch had a cracked jewel, which one was it?
We will get there
Paul.
September 23, 2013 at 9:29 am #54119
steadypin
Participant
Hi Tom, I am leaning towards what David has said. I believe the roller jewel is binding in the pallet fork slot. There is a tool called a roller jewel gauge (maybe you have one) it should fit into the the fork slot with just a touch of sideshake, this will determine the right roller jewel. If the roller is to large for the fork slot it will bind, if to much sideshake or a jewel to thin it will loose power going to the escapement. Swapping out parts can be tricky, I would check the original fork opening to the current pallet fork you are trying to use and see if there is any difference in size assuming you have a roller jewel gauge. If this is the problem you will of course have to change the roller jewel using the proper size to use that pallet fork and also adjust your banking pins since they have been moved from there original positions. I just thought I would throw my two cents in since I like this post or for that matter any troubleshooting post I come across. Good luck, SteadyPin
September 23, 2013 at 11:55 am #54120
tmac1956
Participant
SteadyPin:

I don’t have the balance assembly installed, but I do have a gage for checking that.

Thanks for the info…
Tom
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