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  • #53227
    harold g
    Participant

      This is in response to tmac1956 post.Are you saying that the drill presses at Harbor Freight are good enough for the work we do.And if so are there brands that we should be looking at.As Arutha was saying about the run out,would the salesman be able to guide us to a good working machine? Or do we have to know what to look for before going to the store.My main concern is the stuff from over seas.In my line of work I see so much stuff that really scares me. so when exacting tools are needed I get really worried.

      #53228
      david pierce
      Participant

        Harold,
        If a job requires a high precision tool than that is the tool that is needed. When extremely small holes are to be drilled this can be a critical issue. If you put a 3/8 diameter drill bit into a hand held power drill there is no high amount of precision required to drill the hole. If you put a number #80 drill bit into the same hand held power drill it will almost certainly break the drill bit; probably in the hole. Working out the vibrational and concentricity issues for a small high speed precision drill can be and is expensive. An Albrecht high speed precision drill chuck alone (15J0) costs $265.00 but it runs true and is rated for 50,000 rpm. The drill presses designed for this work can run from $700.00 for the Dumore up to thousands of dollars for other brands. If the drilling jobs fall into this catigory than you will certainly reduce the probability of drill breakage and possibily destroying your part by using the more expensive drilling machinery designed for this type of work. Harbor Freight does not sell drill presses for this type of work. Their drill presses are for general work and in that context offer a good bang for the buck. If the job just requires general drilling with the larger size drills (1/16 and up) there is really no reason that I know to spend a small fortune for unnecessary precision and speed.
        david

        #53229
        david pierce
        Participant

          Harold,
          You were fortunate to obtain the Jet High Precision Drill Press for $175.00. Harbor Freight offers nothing in that quality renge at any price. The press you purchased sells for @ $1500.00 new, has a runout of no more than .0002 and turns from 800-12,000 rpm. It is truly a great find.
          david

          #53230
          willofiam
          Moderator

            Harold G, I do use a drill press, an old floor model that I had used for years in woodwork, also use a unimat that my wonderful wife bought for me for real cheap. Neither are super accurate. I am not saying the drill press is not a great tool to have, I think someday I will have to figure something else out for drilling. what I was really getting to while reading the posts here was cost, I find I would rather spend the money on other tools before, like David put well, @Harold G wrote:

            there is really no reason that I know to spend a small fortune for unnecessary precision and speed.

            Starting out in horology is a daunting experience with tooling and supplies, It can be very costly in just getting the basics, I am rather new and have spent thousands. throughout this last year there has been some good purchases and some bad for me. Like I was saying before, I have not yet had the driving force to buy a super accurate drill press and I find other tools that are used more often to accomplish the task at hand or should I say to refurbishing a clock or pocketwatch, but you never know that day may come, seems like the more you learn the more tools you need (or at least that is my excuse). Everyone is a little different and please dont take what anyone has to say as gospel but as good advice and information (especially me ). I am rather limited in metalworking and do enjoy and learn much from conversations about lathes and drill presses ect…. great technical information….in a nutshell….I try to get by with what I have until I get that driving force to upgrade and just like you I do all the homework first because the tree I had in the backyard quit growing money, Only one more thing and maybe David has some ideas on this, is there a small hand operated drill press that would be highly accurate???? Thanks all and have a fantastic day, William

            #53231
            david pierce
            Participant

              William,
              The answer to your last question is yes. The tool is called a WATCH CRAFT TRI DUTY STAKING TOOL. The tool combines a staking tool, drill press and friction jeweling tool into one machine. They are rare, hard to find and expensive. It would seem to me that with a little bit of clever machine work almost any staking tool could be converted into a bow or hand driven drill press. It could also be converted into a tapping machine for small taps. Just a thought.
              david

              #53232
              willofiam
              Moderator

                Thanks David, I have a older KWM hand crank bushing machine that has a drill chuck to hold the cutters, for me this works well and has the clamps that hold the plates in place, it is very accurate with the cutters and does alright drilling, a dual purpose tool for one price (which was quite a bit). I use it constantly in bushing clocks. I also have a Seitz jeweling tool that has the ability to cut small accurate holes with reamers and spade cutters for the watchmaker (I have not been able to spend much time with this tool yet) As I think about it :geek: I would like to have a 4 car garage full of all the tools Bob would buy for me, but that really isnt possible as I can only use up a 2 1/2 car space, I have bought the Seitz and have a full sized complete staking set and this and that, possible I have spent too much and ended up with some items I may not use much, that would really be my point. In the end I guess it all depends on necessity and mullah. A good drill press for general work is handy dandy, thank you for the insight on this thread ;) , Have fun today :D , William

                #53233
                david pierce
                Participant

                  William,
                  Watch tools are always in high demand and will almost certainly go up in value. I do not know if this is really spending, it is investing. There are tools like the Jet Precision Drill Press that can always be sold for more than today’s purchase price down the road and other items like a Wall Mart screwdriver set that has almost no resale value after the purchase. If you purchased a Seitz Jeweling press and a staking set, the capital gain on these items will probably outperform most 4o1 K plans.
                  david

                  #53234
                  tmac1956
                  Participant

                    Well… this thread has provided some great information. I think I’m settling in on the following:

                    Proxxon MICRO Mill MF 70 for the exacting work

                    – and a –

                    Craftsman 12” Drill Press for general toolmaking, etc.

                    Anyway – that’s where I’m looking now. Unless of course, someone has a better idea, which I’m sure that they do.

                    Thanks!
                    tmac

                    #53235
                    achipo
                    Participant

                      This looks pretty nice if you’re looking for a jeweler’s drill press: eBay item 321096957695

                      #53236
                      arutha
                      Participant
                        #53237
                        tmac1956
                        Participant

                          David:

                          What is your opinion of this unit for small precision drilling/milling work (in the price range I mean)?

                          http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM468358614P

                          Thaks!
                          tmac

                          #53238
                          david pierce
                          Participant

                            Tmac,
                            Ultimately when a person purchases a machine it is their purchase and they need to be happy with what they bought. From 1971 to 1999 I was involved in the machining/manufacturing business in various capacities. I learned the trade through an abusive apprentice system and made everything one could imagine from stamping dies, forming dies, injection molds, cams, machinery,and propellor blades. In the 1980s I also went back to school and became the manufacturing engineer for the company. When I look at a machine now I look at things that made machinery function well in the past and do my best to ignore things that are unimportant. For me this makes the task of deciding to purchase a machine or not purchase a machine the result of asking and answering certain questions:
                            1. What do I need the machine to do? Will it provide enough bed size and X,Y Z capacity for my needs? Does it offer precise positioning and feed control in the X,Y and Z axis?
                            2. Will the machine provide the amount of precision and repeatability that I need?
                            3. Are there features on the machine that I don’t need that will make it stop working if they malfunction?
                            4. Is it made from machined cast iron and contain enough mass and weight? Does it have sufficient power and rigidity to take a decent cut in steel without stalling out or shaking and vibrating?
                            5. Most importantly, will the machine take industry standard accessories like R-8 collets, boreing heads, R-8 end mill holders, quality Jacobs and Albrecht chucks? Will the bed hold at least a 4″ rotary table that uses a dividing plate and sector arms? Will it take a standard clamping set? Will it take a small industry standard milling machine vice?

                            I had the same choice a few years ago and bought a Harbor Freight Mini Mill instead of a Proxxon or Sherline. It was around $500.00 dollars and was one of the best purchases I could have made.
                            david

                            #53239
                            tmac1956
                            Participant

                              @david pierce wrote:

                              Tmac,
                              Ultimately when a person purchases a machine it is their purchase and they need to be happy with what they bought. From 1971 to 1999 I was involved in the machining/manufacturing business in various capacities. I learned the trade through an abusive apprentice system and made everything one could imagine from stamping dies, forming dies, injection molds, cams, machinery,and propellor blades. In the 1980s I also went back to school and became the manufacturing engineer for the company. When I look at a machine now I look at things that made machinery function well in the past and do my best to ignore things that are unimportant. For me this makes the task of deciding to purchase a machine or not purchase a machine the result of asking and answering certain questions:
                              1. What do I need the machine to do? Will it provide enough bed size and X,Y Z capacity for my needs? Does it offer precise positioning and feed control in the X,Y and Z axis?
                              2. Will the machine provide the amount of precision and repeatability that I need?
                              3. Are there features on the machine that I don’t need that will make it stop working if they malfunction?
                              4. Is it made from machined cast iron and contain enough mass and weight? Does it have sufficient power and rigidity to take a decent cut in steel without stalling out or shaking and vibrating?
                              5. Most importantly, will the machine take industry standard accessories like R-8 collets, boreing heads, R-8 end mill holders, quality Jacobs and Albrecht chucks? Will the bed hold at least a 4″ rotary table that uses a dividing plate and sector arms? Will it take a standard clamping set? Will it take a small industry standard milling machine vice?

                              I had the same choice a few years ago and bought a Harbor Freight Mini Mill instead of a Proxxon or Sherline. It was around $500.00 dollars and was one of the best purchases I could have made.
                              david

                              Just comparing the two machines, it looks like the Proxxon will do more things than a beginner like myself needs. It does have much higher speed than the Mini Mill, but less horsepower AND it looks like the Proxxon uses proprietary collets (I could be wrong on that one.)

                              What about CNC capabilities? Does either of these work like that and of how much importance is this capability for students in Horology – cutting gears, etc.?
                              Thanks again!
                              tmac1956
                              tmac

                              #53240
                              tmac1956
                              Participant

                                David:

                                It looks like the HF Mini Mill/Drill gets overall good reviews. A few things that I’d like to know how you handled on yours.

                                1. What tweaks/adjustments did you do to get it 100% ? I understand they are pretty normal and should be done for most machines anyway.
                                2. The main problem that I am reading about is the plastic gears. The owners appear to just swap them out. If you swapped yours out, where did you get the parts and how much trouble was it?

                                Thanks!
                                tmac

                                #53241
                                gerene
                                Participant

                                  Just comparing the two machines, it looks like the Proxxon will do more things than a beginner like myself needs. It does have much higher speed than the Mini Mill, but less horsepower AND it looks like the Proxxon uses proprietary collets (I could be wrong on that one.)

                                  What about CNC capabilities? Does either of these work like that and of how much importance is this capability for students in Horology – cutting gears, etc.?
                                  Thanks again!
                                  tmac

                                  You are right, Proxxon uses proprietary collets ranging from 1.0 mm to 3.2 mm (1/32″ to 1/8″) included with the machine, but a M8x1 Jacobs chuck will also work.

                                  Proxxon does have a CNC kit available for it, I don’t have it and would not know if it is of much importance in horology.

                                  I have one of those and I am happy with it. Never used it for things like gear cutting, so I cannot comment on that.

                                  Jan

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