Waltham Model 1883 issues

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  • #49525
    stevefitzwater
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    Ok, been playing with this pocket watch for a bit, it is a 18s Model 1883, No1 Sterling 7j. circa 1888/9, Serial Number 3695529; I have had this puppy apart several times now and still have not found the issue…

    It runs like a champ… as long as it is not dial up… then it will stop within a few seconds of it being placed in that position, every other position it runs and runs and runs, keep time with in a few mins a week. Yeah, been playing with it that long… I have gone through everything so many times I have named the parts… any more I will probably write them into the will…

    Yeah it is not a “high end” watch, but it is one of those I bought as movement stripped from it case..

    #62291
    chris mabbott
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    Steve, believe it or not, a few month ago I had this very same issue on the very same model watch… It turned out that I had a very rough pivot end which I missed, because I was fed up 😆 I should’ve known better..
    Anyway, I rounded the pivot and it ran great, all positions..

    Have you checked the end shake of the train. It could also be a partly broken pivot on the balance, they sometimes look ok, but the end has broken… Something to check..

    #62292
    stevefitzwater
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    • Topics Started: 48
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    checked all the pivots, they all looked ok, the balance looked ok,

    I can tear it apart again and check… I have done it so many times, it only takes a few minutes…

    #62293
    chris mabbott
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    Steve have you checked the pivot holes? Check the top plate underside, see if there are any marks around the pivot area. Sometimes on the brass plate types, the pivot can wear the softer material and cause unevenness . If you had an uprighting tool, maybe you have, you could check the alignment between the upper/lower pivot holes

    #62294
    stevefitzwater
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    I looked at the pivot holes, they all looked ok, but I freely admit that I am nothing more then a apprentice at best…

    All things for me to check over again..

    no on the upright tool..

    I am leaning towards a balance issue, to me that is still the “Last Frontier” where I have not ventured into to much.. it is still that mystical area.

    I guess I will venture into it now..

    #62295
    chris mabbott
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    I hear ya, I was also suddenly manipulated into that area, but it is needed..

    Those brass/gilded jobbies can take a very close inspection with a strong loupe. Especially around the pivot holes, the tapered end of the staff can sometime hit, if there is excessive wear, the wheels can bind etc etc..

    If you feel that it is balance related then by all mean begin there, test the end shake, it should not be excessive, not too snug. Re-check the balance pivots, length, the ends.. Run the ends of the pivot across your nail, if they are rough, they will mark the nail, if smooth, not..

    Remove the HS and pallet fork and try to free spin the balance, move it around to see if it still stop dial up.. re-check the jewel seating and position.

    If it is stopping in a certain position, check the areas that the wheel would hit when gravity forces them in the opposite direction.
    Check the curb pin. etc then let us know what you find..

    Good luck mate and don’t get disheartened, walk away for a spell :|

    #62296
    randy
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 39
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    Chris has some great ideas.

    I had one where the hairspring was rubbing on the balance arms when in the dial up position.
    You’ll have to use a strong loupe and watch it as it’s running, as you can’t fully tell if the balance isn’t mounted in the balance cock, and moving.

    You can also look for rub marks on the arms….

    RB

    #62297
    stevefitzwater
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    Thanks for the advice…

    Diving into the deep end with no life guards on duty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    #62298
    stevefitzwater
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    ok, checked everything again last night, the balance looks fine, I slide it across my nail and it scratched it… both sides.. so I guess I need to round it… sooo Chris… how and with what? dang thing is so freakin small.. LOL

    Here is my plan, pin vise to hold it… but I am pretty sure I do not have anything I can use to use to round it over with.. LOL

    #62299
    chris mabbott
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    • Topics Started: 119
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    Ah, this is the question Steve… OK, yes, you could use a pin vice, but that would kinda be the cowboy way of doing it, mainly because you have no control and could/would end up with an uneven end, rather than a perfectly rounded one.. You could also break something, easily :?

    The correct and safe way is to use a Jacot tool, or secondary, a lathe equipped with an offset lantern in the tailstock.

    Watch this VIDEO from about 10:20 to see how our buddy perplxr handles the job..

    #62300
    stevefitzwater
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 48
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    soooo… your saying this watch goes back into the storage until I acquire those tools..

    so one this one watch I have added 4 more items to the never ending tools list.. LOL

    #62301
    chris mabbott
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 119
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    😆 Steve, let me put it this way…. If you’re gonna do watch “repair”, you need the tools, period 🙄

    I figured I could get by with a set of screwdrivers and a loupe when I started, probably like most of the guys here, but then you need this, that, and that etc etc. I suppose if a person just want’s to service working watches, the kind that actually are running when we get them 😮 then minimal tools will suffice. In our case, we are acquiring antique pieces that need work, parts, servicing and tuning, so certain tools of the trade are required.. Pivot work is something you’ll do all the time, you will always, or should, use the jacot tool to safely clean, polish, touch up and burnish pivots as part of a service..
    A fully equipped staking set is another must…

    I made my grievous boo boos trying to do these things without the proper tools, and it cost me in time, grief and the parts I FUped :(
    So, I think most everyone here will suggest that the best way is to purchase the tools. I mean, if you’re only doing a couple of watches, that’s a different thing, but if you intend to continue, get your gear now.

    There is also a comprehensive yet sensibly realistic tool list posted here somewhere, maybe the author can point the way to that thread..

    #62302
    stevefitzwater
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 48
    • Total Posts: 385

    LOL, I fully understand the need for the tools, it just seems the list keeps growing and growing..

    I have a large chunk that William is selling to me, but JUST when I thought it was getting narrowed down.. You add enlighten me as to another bunch of tools to get…

    #62303
    willofiam
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 75
    • Total Posts: 1437

    Hey Steve, Tools, machinery, parts and supplies, dont yah love it. I told my wife 2 years ago I was done………….I lied. Didnt mean to, just addicted I guess. Chris hits it on the head referring to “getting by” and “doing thorough proper work” It does cost at the first, but well pays off in the future. Not only in your abilities but also as a investment in the rising value of these tools and the timepieces you work on. I will repeat myself when I say all the tools for watchmaking I have bought have been a great investment. Just look on craigslist and see how many people around the country are advertizing to buy watchmakers stuff. o.k….done rambling.

    Steve, hope your o.k. with me putting this here, if not just tell me. I was going to throw in a staking set BUT it is in rough shape and only fairly complete. with some elbow grease you may get it in good shape, will get you started there if you dont have one already. I may also have a few other things for you. William

    #62304
    randy
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 39
    • Total Posts: 594

    Steve,
    I found this from one of Bob’s earlier postings that may give you an option,

    ” You can remove material from a pivot end using a pin-vise and very fine stone. It’s very difficult to obtain a flat pivot end using this method. It can be done by doing the job on a soft cork sheet but it takes some practice and still no guarantee that the pivot won’t end up with a slight point or an off angled flat. Neither of these conditions is good. Some people feel that a flat bottom will perform better on watches with fixed stationary cap jewels (non shock absorbing jewel settings like KIF and Incabloc) than a conical end while others prefer conical for fixed cap jewels. If you’re going to use the pin-vise method you should shoot for a conical shape which I feel is fine for your fixed cap jewel pocket watch.

    Here’s the method that I used to use. You can modify it to suit your needs..it’s just what worked for me. I like to let the weight of the pin-vise (small pin-vise) do the grinding. With the staff chucked in the pin-vise I rest the pivot on a very fine stone which is laying down on a flat table top. Then tilting the pin-vise toward me about 10 degrees or so and holding the end (top) of the pin-vise between my thumb and index finger I would spin the pin-vise while pulling the bottom of the pin-vise towards me with the index finger of my other hand. When doing this I would keep the position of the top of the pin vise stationary. I would pull the bottom of the pin-vise up to and then just beyond vertical position and stop when the top of the pin-vise was tilted a few degrees in the other direction. It’s important to pass the point where the pin-vise is straight up and down and VERY important stop pulling while the pin-vise is still spinning and not before. By allowing the weight of the pin-vise to apply downward pressure rather than pushing down with your hand you’ll only grind a tiny bit off with each pass. This is important when using this method since the staff is making very few rotations while pulling and small flat areas are likely to form. By making many lighter passes you should end up with a smoother more even surface. The remaining unevenness can then be polished out.”

    RB

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stevefitzwaterWaltham Model 1883 issues