“The Herschede project” our new old family clock

[willofiam]

Hey David, great question, the problem is I am unable to give a proper response. I consider a clock as if it was a large watch, besides the balance in the watch with the amount of beats per hour the rest, is very similar. all the parameters used in watch oiling would be observed in a clock, amounts of oil, mainsprings, escapements, ect…and are critical to proper function. I have, in part, blindly followed tradition with limited experimentation. and I suppose without in-depth study and research I will continue to follow it (I would have to prove that there was something better), although open to new ideas and suggestions. I also think that any oil, grease, spray, lubricant, viscosity would work but probably with limited success (in a watch or a clock). This is a huge subject, but I think along with it are many other factors like condition of the pivots, escapement, wear, or anything else related to a lose of power. About a year ago I worked on a jewelers regulator that had a pin wheel escapement, a real large heavy pendulum, medium sized weight. This clock in the case was about 9 feet tall. to my understanding a clock like this was made to run using approximately 95 – 97 % of the power provided, anything that stole away power would effect its performance. on the other side there are many clocks that are very small, using platform escapement, lever escapements, floating balances ect… the same issues with watch oiling should be observed on these clocks……There you have it, the best I could do to avoid the subject. Have a great day, William

P.S. Does anyone know how to figure out the amount of power, force or torque at a particular point in a watch or clock movement? With Davids question it got me thinking about that. what would the actual torque be at the great wheel as opposed to the escape wheel? I am sure you would have to know this if you were to build a movement.

[david pierce]

William,
The answer is yes and the measurement is called a torque moment. Assume that you have a rod on a pivot that is exactly one foot in length that wants to move upward. You apply one pound of force (weight, mass, a spring etc.) one foot away from the center of the pivot point and the rod is stabilized. That is called a state of equilibrium and the torque moment of that system is one foot- pound. The same principal can be applied to any pivoting body but for the sake of convience, the choice of units should match the size and weight of the system. For a watch train you would want to choose much smaller units such as milligram-millimeters. Small electric motors are balanced in gram-centimeters but the actual output of the motor shaft might be measured in newton-meters or foot-pounds. This is also what is going on when a balance wheel is poised. You are trying to achieve a state of torsional equilibrium.
david

[chris mabbott]

As mentioned, I’ve never worked on a clock, so this is probably going to be a totally STOOPID question for you seasoned clock boyz but here goes, do clock movements use jewels? If no, why not, is it due to torque or surface area?

William have you ever experimented with making a bearing for clock pivots? I assume that they are metal to ferrous/non-ferrous metal contact having friction reduced via lubrication?
They are large enough that a person could make something, maybe out of aircraft grade nylon, pretty durable stuff, form a bushing type bearing, maybe mounted in a setting. Might be a fun and interesting project although altering original is a bit of a dicey prospect..

Just a 3 am thought bubble :ugeek:

[david pierce]

Chris,
Why not a ball bearing? They can be purchased in very small sizes. I think they would improve the running of a clock by reducing friction and increasing precision, but it would upset tradition. If ball bearings had been available when mechanical clocks were invented, they would be on antique clock movements.
david

[chris mabbott]

I was thinking that too David.
They sell those tiny needle bearings for radio controlled models, even in nylon, they’re the size of a pencil tip eraser, kewl.
Would be interesting to do it and then see how it would perform in comparison to an unmodified model
I see nothing wrong in a little modification/science project as long as it’s done well

It could even be offered as an “upgrade” for a certain cost, of course.

[willofiam]

sounds like were going to make clockmakers out of you guys yet . I did work on a movement that had ball bearings for the great wheel, It was that International time recording regulator I had posted about…..o.k. found the picture.

[mahlon]

William, I am amazed by your work. When I grow up, if I do, I want to be as good as you. As for putting ball bearings in clocks, I am all for improving them, but if you get them to run forever, what will all of us old people do for fun Mahlon

[chris mabbott]

William,

Who da man, you da man baby 😆

When I saw that little bearing the first thing that popped into my head was the word … CUUUte

Did you find anywhere that supplied replacement of this type? How did the mechanism seem to run in comparison to a non-bearing type, smoother, better, worse?

There are companies that sell miniature needle bearings with a 2mm bore, these would work great as the load on these gears should be radial and not thrust, but even so, needles will handle some thrust. I may even try to pick up an old movement and try it, once I get my tooling issues sorted out.
What is the diameter of the pivots on clocks, generally, lets say on a mid sized mantle?

[david pierce]

For many years ball bearings could not equal the precision of cone bearings. This is why all of the old watchmaker lathes used cone bearings. The advantage of a ball bearing spindle was more RPMs, but sacraficing precision for more speed was unacceptable. This was a particular problem in the drilling of extremely small holes where more speed was needed to get the proper SFM and prevent drill breakage. This situation changed around WW-2 when manufacturing methods allowed ball bearing precision to surpass that of the cone bearings. As far as I know the first watch lathe company to pick up on this was Derbyshire. Now it is ball bearings that have reached their upper end of precision and have been surpassed by air bearings. The machines that use these spindles are so accurate they can produce a black polish finish with a turning tool.
david

[arutha]

William,
what a great job! I know I have not commented much but as you know I have been busy. You have done a wonderful job my friend
There are a couple of questions that were raised that I thought I would try and answer, the first from David asking about grease on larger arbors, there has always been a rule in clockmaking, if it slides, grease it, if it rotates, oil it. With arbors I would imagine through the constant turning and pressure it would eventually push the grease out of the plate holes. Steel ball bearings have been used in project clocks I have been reading about in the BHI journals, it seems when they are first installed they run beautifully but some people are having trouble finding a suitable lubricant to keep them running smoothly for extended periods.The new ceramic bearings, on the other hand, seem to be doing much better. You obviously would not want to fit roller bearings into an antique as it would lose most if not all of its value but if you were building a clock as a project- anything goes as long as it is fit for purpose
Paul.

[chris mabbott]

Modding, improving or modernizing anything vintage/antique has always been a hotly contested topic, based on emotion and personal preference. The arguments are valid from both sides, but personally, if I was going to purchase an antique for my own pleasure, lets say a clock, that had fallen into disrepair, something that I planned to keep for myself, and if the upgrade would be beneficial to the mechanism and provide many more years of trouble free operation, then I would go for it, because I would not be concerned about resale value, only that it ran well.

My ex father in law was into restoring old cars, when he would do his restorations he would try to maintain the original look but he would use modern parts and techniques, as in using new style braking systems, modern electronics, material and replacing spindles with bearings. This didn’t take away the look of the auto, but it did greatly improve its function, it ran better than the originals which were prone to many failures. His customers never questioned his practices as they wanted something from this era that was reliable and fun.
I look at anything mechanical in the same way, an improvement over an old technique is just that, an improvement.
It reminds me of the battle between watchmakers who were against jewels, then those that were against more than 7, 15 jewels etc

The nice thing about mods, is that they are usually reversible, the next temporary owner can put it in the order that suits him, maybe originality is more important than functionality or possibly the interest is purely financial.

What ever the reasons, none of them can be counted out because it is personal preference, again LOL

personally, I would use needle bearings in any clock movement, for mostly radial loads they are perfect as the load is distributed over a greater surface, lubrication wise, they also hold light synthetics very well at low speeds, whereas ball bearing contact areas are much less, and if the speed is not high enough to whip the lubrication around the race, it will eventually migrate out. On ball bearing fitted industrial equipment that has low rpm, a heavy gear oil is usually used as is adheres to the rotating parts parts better and maintains a film.. For these older slow moving ball bearings, probably a Teflon based lubricant would perform better as it has high film strength and shear limits.
Correct application is the key to success of any mod or new design.

[david pierce]

One possible option might be to take the original movement out of the case, duplicate the movement with the improvements and put it in the clock, put the old movement in a crate in case you want to resell it as an original, and enjoy the new and improved clock.
david

[bernie weishapl]

William I did a old time master clock that drove some slave clocks that I put some butter bearings (ball bearings) on the second wheels that were wearing badly. I got them from butterworth clocks. Kinda anxious to see how they hold up after a year or so. They are kinda slick. Haven’t tried them on any other clocks. Kind of a experiment for me. As for my idea’s they will have to wait a couple months till I get my eye’s fixed.

[willofiam]

Hey Chris, I would say on a average American movement the most common size pivots are between 1.20mm to 1.50mm. As far as running across movements with bearings it is few and far between, the Int. time recording regulator already had the installed. it appears the bearings are in places where there is alot of force, On the Herachede there was a bushed pivot area that had a steel housing around it giving it a way for adjusting the end-shake as that particular gear meshed with a beveled gear for the chime mechanism, could it have helped with wear? I dont think so as I had to put a new bushing into it. here is a picture of that.

I love to experiment with new and exciting ideas, but also remember that a 100 year old clock like this only needed 2 bushings and it keeps perfect time. stay warm, and if you already are the please send me a jar of warm air. William

[willofiam]

Howdy, I wanted to comment on the chime tubes, I had experimented with several different materials for hanging them and the sound they produced. first when refurbishing a older clock with leather hammer heads it is always a good idea to let whoever owns the clock know that the sound will change, my experience is that the sound will be “duller” with new leather, you can manipulate the leather to change the sound as I did with this clock by smashing the leather flat with a hammer changing the thickness, density of the leather and it gave a brighter sound. . also where the hammer strikes the rod, gong or tube (tubes in this case) will have different effects, I adjusted the tube height for the hammers to hit approximately 1/8 inch down from the top rim, this seemed to give more resonance than any other struck spot. Hanging the tubes I used a cotton string to start, 2mm diameter, the sound was o.k. but I felt it to be a bit dull, I then tried using the old brass weight cables, swedging them on to a certain length made it easy to install the tubes but the brass was stealing away the sound and resonance. I talked with Jim1228 from the forum here and thru his intelligent insight we came up with using a thinner strong string which would allow the tubes to resonated longer and brighter, oh boy was he right, smart guy that Jim…I used what is called spiderwire, a braided nylon fishing line at .50mm diameter, 60lb strength, the brightest and longest resonating out of all I tried. hope this helps, William

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