Pallet Right Hook?

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  • #49305
    maitai11
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 62
    • Total Posts: 428

    Hi Guys,

    I’ve been wracking my brain as to why I was able to follow each wheel down to the escape wheel, and nothing ever jumped out at me as to what the cause of the watch stoppage was…

    Sooooo…I started reassembling the watch today – guess what? – mainspring is squared away and ready for installation! There’s one victory :) I ended up lightly greasing the mainspring barrel – and dabbed a couple spots at 120 degree intervals (thanks Randy:)

    Sorry for the sidetrack. Take a look at the pallet for me in the photo below, if you would please. I put it on top of the barrel bridge because I don’t have a machinist’s block as of yet to safely place it on a flat surface without bending/breaking the pivots…Joe? JOE???

    So, the pallet jewels are to the right in the picture, pallet fork to the left. I hope you can see right above the pallet fork that there is a brass guard pin that hooks to the right, or toward the pallet jewels. I think that is the proper term for this brass piece of metal that sticks straight up and perpendicular to the pallet’s horizontal (in relation to the main plate) plane. Again, to clarify, should that guard pin be sticking straight up, and should I bend it into that position, or is it meant to be bent forward to avoid hitting a part of the balance wheel – and should I leave it alone?

    Now, I checked the roller jewel, and it’s a round shape, as opposed to the usual “D”. Directly in front of the roller jewel, there is a mild “half moon” cutout toward the pallet fork. It is in this half moon cutout that, I believe, makes contact with that brass guard pin. What do you think? I eagerly await your worthy opinion!

    Best,

    Tim

    #60258
    chris mabbott
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 119
    • Total Posts: 1525

    Tim,

    I’ve just got out of bed so the brain has not had the chance to catch up with the hands or to absorb the caffeine yet, but hey, I’ll try and be coherent 🙄

    You got it right, the guard pin is the correct name, or one of them, of little brass pin that stands vertically on the pallet fork arm. Its position, I think, is determined by its contact or lack of, with the roller table.
    T be honest, I’m confused about this myself because I can never find any definitive info that tells me that YES, this is how it should sit.
    Maybe I did, but I didn’t get it because the info had a HUH factor.

    The guard pin is supposed to prevent too much rotation of the balance, that could cause the roller jewel to bang against the pallet horns upon re-entry.

    The terms are a bit confusing… Some guys say that what I mentioned above is called Over Banking.
    The roller table, due to either a much too powerful mainspring, or an incorrect hairspring, is propelled too far so the timing between pallet and roller jewel is out of sync.

    A “clacking noise” can be heard as the roller jewel momentarily strikes the pallet, BUT the watch still runs

    I’m gonna confuse you and me even more now….

    When a watch stops, due to the roller jewel actually hitting the horns, but the fork blocks re-entry and jams the two rotating parts. Some call this Over Banking…. Others call it Locking due to Over Banking..
    So there is a terminology issue going on on different sides of the pond.

    I think it was Fried who says that a lock up is over banking. HUH 😥

    The safety pin….. I’ve seen some bent with a little U shape, I assume to match the cutout on the roller table?
    I’ve seen others bent in alternate directions. So I’m not sure if it should actually touch the rim of the roller table, ever so slightly, or not.
    It can be adjusted if a larger/smaller replacement roller table has been installed..

    Good topic to bring up Tim, I was looking at this very same thing last week., I think I have it pending on the answer I haven’t found yet… Maybe someone who has a more flexible brain than me can shed a bit more info on it..

    My thinking was… Jeez, how much info and school of thought could possibly go into a micro piece of brass hair 😆

    #60259
    chris mabbott
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 119
    • Total Posts: 1525

    I forgot to add, you don’t need a machinist block, unless you need a level surface.

    Out of all the tools available, I prefer my little wooden blocks that I made ages ago, just get some bits of wood, drill some holes in them. Balsa wood works great because its soft, you can make an impression of an item by simply applying pressure. You now have a little work block and your parts don’t slide around, and will not be scratched..

    I plan to make some fancy designed ones, eventually 🙄

    #60260
    tukat44
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 8
    • Total Posts: 76

    So my thinking is it should not be bent unless it looks like it has been bent into a seemingly unnatural shape. This of course could be wrong, as in a repair made previously that was incomplete to this end. The pin is, as chris stated, designed to prevent the pallet fork being the cause of the watch stopping. If a new pin was fitted and was not done correctly but a new pin was installed, I wonder how the person knew enough to do that procedure on a part so tiny they would have needed a microscope to see what they were looking at, then the manual dexterity to remove the pin correctly and install a new one without taking it to the next level and position the pin correctly after enduring the torture of investigating the situation enough to know all these other things. I learned the pin in the watch I was working on was supposed to be positioned down and I broke the pivot when I installed it backwards. Plus, the thing is so tiny it was difficult for me to position it in the first place. I am wary about bending things without first being absolutely certain it needs to be done. Thanks to all, Tukat

    #60261
    tukat44
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 8
    • Total Posts: 76

    So, Sorry, as I cannot tell from the picture that the pin is already bent, but seems to be facing what appears to be the wrong direction. Again, if it looks like someone has done a repair, and this has gone bad, that is one thing. The pin should be a friction tight fit that could have slipped allowing it to rotate into that position. Pointy end of Pin should be facing balance staff, I think I am 100% sure on this point. I welcome the comments of anyone who has experienced anything that is inconsistent with the setup as I have described. Thanks to all- Tukat

    #60262
    tukat44
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 8
    • Total Posts: 76

    Also, Tim, nice job doing the research and identifying the roller table, guard pin, roller jewel, pallet fork, safety roller and crescent. Really nice job by someone who is still in the very first stages of learning this fascinating craft. Best- Brother Joe “Tukat”

    #60263
    chris mabbott
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 119
    • Total Posts: 1525

    Joe,

    From what I think you’re describing, it sounds like you might have a double roller on your watch??

    The safety/guard pin on a double roller is different to that of a single roller..

    Single roller guard pin is a straight vertical brass pin..

    Double roller guard pin is more pointed at the tip and it sits in the horizontal position, looks like an L on its side.

    I’m not at home right now so I can’t post a photo..

    The pins are tiny but fairly easy to change with a 10 mag loupe and staking set, but you’re right, afterwards, it isn’t easy to bend them.. If you have DeCarles springing and adjusting book, I think he gives an example of a little tool used for this pupose.. Holding the slippery, tiny little devil securely, without breaking it is another challenge. He holds most of his parts between the finger as you can feel the force better.

    I suppose this is where the old adage originates from that…. Big hands, laborer, small hands, technician. Although I’ve heard a totally different view from women on that theory which should not be discussed on a family forum ;)

    #60264
    tukat44
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 8
    • Total Posts: 76

    Chris, Thanks. I stand corrected. Although I cannot find reference to different guard pin position quickly, I have not taken down a pocket watch with a Single roller setup yet so I do not have ANY experience with this setup. My sense is that until proven to be the cause of stoppage, that nothing should be bent by me unless it is shown by the design that the configuration as it sits is incorrect. Some of the things would be more obvious, the way the guard pin sits would be much less obvious, and I have broken things unnecessarily (because I was unsure of the correct installation). I would first start by reassembling the watch to see if cleaning and oiling has set it up to run properly. There is so much good stuff on this forum. Thanks again, Chris. Tukat

    #60265
    chris mabbott
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 119
    • Total Posts: 1525

    Joe, yes, you’re exactly right, don’t alter anything until youve proven it..

    The way I check is to remove all gearing and reassemble the watch with only the pallet fork in place.
    remove the hairspring from the balance (optional but I do it for safety, dont want to bend the spring)
    with the balance/roller table reinstalled, manipulate the balance wheel to check clearances, contact, binding etc..
    Use a strip of paper, or blower, to gently spin the wheel back and forth, see if it binds at any point. once these checks have been made, I remount the hairspring, install the balance again, then perform another swing test, as above, just with the HS attached.

    For me, this eliminates that issue from the onset.

    #60266
    Bob Tascione
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 1559

    Good morning guys,
    Wanted to let you know that single roller saftey action is in the text section of your Watch and Ultra Course.
    When you log in to the course scroll down the page and click on the orange link that says ‘Safety Action’ or ‘Escapement Action’. It’s an excerpt
    from my book “Pocket Watches and Why They Work”.
    Also, you can check the clearances with hairspring on if you wish by turning the balance wheel a little so that the safety pin is clear of the passing crescent then with a tweezers or piece of peg wood pull the lever back until it makes contact with the roller. It must not allow the lever to swing all the way over to the other side. Also there should be a tiny amount of clearance between the finger and the roller when the lever is up against the banking pin. You will feel this clearance (shake) when moving the lever back and forth while testing. Then rotate the balance to the other side and test again. There should be no contact or drag between the finger and the roller at any time except when a shock sends the lever over. The finger should clear the crescent. You can test this by letting down the power and with the lever up against a banking pin manually rotate the balance slightly. If the pin is adjusted too far into the horn and makes contact with the crescent then the lever will move with it Before the roller jewel engages the lever. You can adjust the finger until all the correct conditions are met.

    Hope this helps!
    Now for another morning cup of coffee,
    Bob

    #60267
    chris mabbott
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 119
    • Total Posts: 1525

    Muy buenos Roberto,

    Well, I don’t think that there’s much hope for me if I missed a whole video 😆
    Is that what the saying…. Can’t see the forest for trees, refers to :?

    Ill definitely go and brush up in that arena when I get home.
    Thanks for the info Bob, it does indeed help..

    #60468
    tukat44
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 8
    • Total Posts: 76

    Bob, Thanks for the quick and easy access to your thorough and detailed explanation of the safety action with Single roller configuration. I see the pin performs the same action of containing the lever at the balance staff end, but the pin is not bent. So, depending on Tim’s watch, the pin is correct in the upright if it is a single roller, as your illustration shows. This is also one of the reasons Watch and Clock repair is attractive to me not just as a hobby, but as a lifelong endeavor. Regards- Tukat

    #60368
    tukat44
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 8
    • Total Posts: 76

    Bob, Thanks for the quick and easy access to your thorough and detailed explanation of the safety action with Single roller configuration. I see the pin performs the same action of containing the lever at the balance staff end, but the pin is not bent. So, depending on Tim’s watch, the pin is correct in the upright if it is a single roller, as your illustration shows. This is also one of the reasons Watch and Clock repair is attractive to me not just as a hobby, but as a lifelong endeavor. Regards- Tukat

    #60268
    tukat44
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 8
    • Total Posts: 76

    Bob, Thanks for the quick and easy access to your thorough and detailed explanation of the safety action with Single roller configuration. I see the pin performs the same action of containing the lever at the balance staff end, but the pin is not bent. So, depending on Tim’s watch, the pin is correct in the upright if it is a single roller, as your illustration shows. This is also one of the reasons Watch and Clock repair is attractive to me not just as a hobby, but as a lifelong endeavor. Regards- Tukat

    #60469
    tukat44
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 8
    • Total Posts: 76

    One Last thing- If I am reading the diagrams correct, on reassembly the double roller pin is down, but on the single roller the pin is up. As I dig deeper into this study of horology, things do not always follow exactly the theory behind the application. The lesson I take away from this is that I must be ultra observant when taking down movements, every time.

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maitai11Pallet Right Hook?