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May 24, 2014 at 11:58 am #49070
Hello to all, I have a real problem child on my hands. I’m sure this is no real challenge to most of you but here it is. A friend of mine brought to me a Seth Thomas wall clock movement that will not run or chime. He told me he took it apart to try to repair it with no luck. After inspecting it and removing the barrel springs, I noticed that the strike side is locked-up, could he have placed a gear in the wrong spot which is making it run against itself maybe? Also the pallet fork locks-up after a few revolutions of the balance wheel. All pivots look to be pretty good, no need for bushings. the pallet fork locks up with the escape wheel. Could someone have replaced the fork with one maybe to large? I haven’t gone much further due to not wanting the responsibility of being the one who messed it up. I suggested to him, I mentioned to him that he may want to just purchase a new movement for the clock but he is pretty adamant about wanting this one to work. I told him to leave it with me for a couple of day’s and I will do some research and inquiring.
I Kind of relish the challenge because I have seen this once before but the movement seemed to be running. Cross this hurdle and ” IF “, I should encounter this problem again, I may have the right solution and knowledge to make the necessary repairs. Another learning curve for me, but once I overcome it, well then it’s just duly noted and recorded in my head. In advance, thanks, Ed.
May 24, 2014 at 2:41 pm #57938
That clock Ed is the same as the 340-020 hermle movement. I can tell you on those old ones that only one size of fork will work in those clocks and the adjustment must be precise. The forks must lock precisely also or it won’t work. Here is a write up on the adjustment of the floating balance. ftp://atmosman.com/pdf/hermle.pdf
Here is the one I keep by my bench that I use from time to time. Look at the picture that has 3 of them. The picture with the – and + sign look at the fork and how it sits. That will give you a idea of what to look for. http://www.davesclocks.net/uploads/5/8/9/1/5891949/hermle_floating_bal_summary.pdf
As far as the strike being locked up you will just have to start either from the top side or the 1st wheel and see which one is stuck. I am guessing if he took it apart and didn’t put the wheels as they came off on a wire to hold them in order he got them switched. Really easy to do. If it is locked up one or more of those wheels is not going to move and would look to the chime side to see how it is working.
IMHO I would replace the movement myself and if he didn’t want to I would just hand him back the clock. I have a sign that says, if you watch me it is a extra $25, if you give advice on how I should do it, it is a extra $75 and if you worked on it before me it is a extra $125. 😆 😆May 24, 2014 at 5:30 pm #57939willofiamModerator
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Hey Ed, yes as Bernie has said the fork has to be set up just right, the guard pin cannot hit the roller. My best guess Ed is if he had taken it apart then the chime may be set up wrong, most likely there could be a bent pivot or pivots (easy to do on these), still real dirty and sticky. Have you taken the mainsprings out of the barrel? Do you have the snail? just looking at the photos I see the chime is possibly in warning ready for strike, If you move the minute hand until the lift cam/ star cam drops the lift lock lever, what happens? any movement of the chime train? if not can you put light pressure on one of the wheels to get it going? also the rack all the way down (push that up a few notches and see what happens, I myself would repair a movement like this. If I may tell you Ed what I did when I first started, I bought a used movement similar to this and spent many hours in practicing dissasembly and reassembly taking notes, pictures ect… to fully understand how it functions, Kind of like tearing down the M-16, after awhile I could do a total disassemble and reassemble in under a minute, and that was blindfolded. I am sure you are right there with the M-16 too. practice, practice, train and practice….. Reason I mention this is alot of people have these types of movements, in having a business repairing clocks I imagine almost 60% or better are Westminster chime movements, and a good portion of those are the Hermle brand. Have a good weekend Ed and all, WilliamMay 24, 2014 at 8:27 pm #57940
Hey guy’s. Bernie I need a sign like that here in my shop, it’s just one of my bedrooms within my house with a nice recliner chair in it. Hence, a hang-out really. I took out the bar stool to make more potential clients a little more comfortable. Since then, I have realized, no one takes your business as more serious than you. Going to check into your web’s also. Just haven’t had the time as of yet. Trying to overcome this clock issue right now. Surly will get on it as I become more confused. (Putting back the bar stool). Enjoy life daily Bernie and best wish’s to you and yours.
Yea William, I to knew my Mattie Mattel 16 like I knew the alleys and streets in Trenton, NJ. But my Springfield 45 and the worst command ANY solider can hear is, FIX BAYNETS always was my favorite. As a former paratrooper, jungle expert, LRRPS/with Ranger Tab, I have always chose close quarters combat. 45’s are good for close quarters. But my bayonet or my British commando boot knife has always been surgical and extremely efficient. (Creep-up from behind and avoid the splash.) Anyway, All that you have mentioned I do and have done. I would like to have this movement to tear down/clean and reassemble, sleep with it, eat with it and pat it and say how sorry I am to it( IF BY CHANCE) I drop it, to get to really know it. What doesn’t come from training surly will come from practice along with more practice and training. This form, the people on it along with willingness, drive and hard core tactics, it will soon come into play, oh and confidence. You guy’s along with your professional toot ledge, how can anyone in here go wrong? You guy’s/gals are great. Thank you all, Ed.May 24, 2014 at 8:29 pm #57941
By the way Ed I have a 340-020 that I took out of a clock I bought. It had some bushing put in by someone else but it is complete. I had it apart and put it back together again. So it is correct. I replaced it with a new movement in the clock it came out of because when I sell a clock I give a 2 yr warranty I wanted the case to have a new movement. I would send it to you and you could compare it to the one you have and as William suggested it is a very common movement in modern mantle clocks so I would practice taking it apart and putting it back together till you can do it by heart. When I disassemble the plates until I got comfortable with them I would remove the front plate and each train (wheels) would get wired together separately. So you would have three trains (wheels) wired together. I take the wheels off one at a time and polish the pivots then wire them back up in order that they came out. After everything has been cleaned and you are ready to reassemble you can put each wheel back in its place and be sure they are correct.
So if you want it let me know and when I get home Tuesday I will get it in the mail. I will only be home a couple of days then off to my nephews wedding.May 24, 2014 at 8:40 pm #57942
Bernie, you are a blessing. If by chance you can find the time to send-it I surly will practice on it until I know it by heart. It seems to be a fairly easy movement to work but one must 1st start with a working complete unit. That will help me out greatly. Thanks Bernie, Ed. Also, enjoy the wedding.May 24, 2014 at 8:50 pm #57943
No problem Ed. I will get it out on Tuesday. I am not sure how well it works as I just wanted to check it out before I decided to put in a new one. I don’t like selling modern clocks without new movements in them especially with a 2 yr warranty which is my standard. But it is complete and everything is original so at least to that point you may take it down clean it, etc. then reassemble it. It may or may not work but you will know all wheels, levers, etc. are correct. One other thing is that the mainsprings need to be removed to be cleaned and checked so be careful doing that. I have a Ollie Baker mainspring winder that I use on mine. You can remove them by hand but doing that they can cone on you so be careful and use leather gloves.
Anyway Ed have a great weekend. I am headed for bed as the grandson and I will be fishing by 5:30 am in the morning. One of life’s great joys.May 24, 2014 at 8:55 pm #57944
Hey Bernie, just printed out the two webs you sent to me and going to go over them tonight. Thanks, Ed.May 24, 2014 at 11:05 pm #57945chris mabbottParticipant
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Man that movement looks as confusing as an airial view if the LA clover leaf LOL
Good luck with that buddy…
Hmm fix bayonets, a classic term from hundreds of years ago, which reminds my that I should pull out my WW1 saw tooth bayo and give it an oil jobMay 25, 2014 at 7:05 am #57946
Hey Chris, long time bud. How’s your new project coming along? Your new machine looks like a jewel, had any time to play with it as of yet? I’m sure you’ll have it up and running in no time. Chris I chose clocks because I have a really hard time with watches. Also I work better with larger parts, the old eye’s elude me with the micros of wrist watches especially the ladies watches. However, I do still enjoy working a good pocket watch every now and then. I collect the old railroad watches, but now If by chance I can afford one I’ll buy it in working condition. But here don’t run cross them to often. People now days have no nostalgia, If it’s not some big gouty watch on their arms that look as though it should go into their pockets instead of on your arm they want nothing to do with it. (Youngsters) and when you do see them at flea markets anymore they want way to much for them, with the con job of saying my grandfather owned this and I know I seen the very same watch in the local Rite Aide store. LOL. Oh and don’t mention the old farts who think your stupid when it comes to them buying what you have. Yes they want it for almost free.
I also enjoy sitting in my little shop listening to my clocks ticking and chiming. I hear my progress as it drives me to repair more. Everything is a learning experience and I’ve chose clocks to be my babies. I see that you are really into your German artifacts, my father also collects military memorabilia also. He’s 88- 89 now and has quite a bit stashed away. His dream is a luger. Have you ever run across any of them? He has a bunch of rifles bayo’s and medals on display in his house along with medals I did see one Iron Cross hanging also. Oh and swords. He spent 23 yr’s in the military, Korea and Nam retired a 1st Sgt with the Special Forces and he still put’s the fear of god in me if I mess-up, he’s a bad man in my eye’s. Nothing but respect for him. Well buddy, I’ll let you go for now. Gonna get ready to go to the cemetery and give a shout-out to all of my fallen comrades in arms. You have a wonderful day and enjoy yourself. Be talking at cha, Ed.May 27, 2014 at 12:22 pm #57947chris mabbottParticipant
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Ed my brother, sorry for the late reply, I’ve been a bit lax on keeping up with postings, as a couple of the guys have reminded me 😳
Thank you for the nice reply, and I hear ya about the dodgy eye balls, I’m blind in one eye and can’t see out the other :geek: I use those strong optics though, I’m too stubborn to quit watches 😈
I see Lugers around on the collecting forums but they command a pretty penny, like everything.. In the EU I’ve only seen them in non-firing condition, but it wouldn’t be hard to get them in working order again, we could almost make one with our lathes
I forgot it was memorial day, Remember the fallen buddy, and the famous quote from Patton…. “It’s not your duty to die for your country, your duty is to make the other bastards die for theirs”….May 28, 2014 at 3:51 am #57948
Patton Had the right idea. On many issues. To bad they stopped him.May 31, 2014 at 5:30 pm #57949
Ed I apologize I didn’t get the movement out Tuesday. We didn’t get home till Wednesday afternoon so I mailed it on Thursday. You should have it shortly as I mailed it priority mail. Enjoy and practice till you know it inside and out. It is probably one of the most common movements I see around here so I took one apart and put it back together till I could do it with my eyes closed. Once you get it down then you can see if you can make it work. Have a great week.June 2, 2014 at 6:10 am #57950
Thanks Bernie, I will do so and soon I to will be able to teardown and reassemble without issues. I’m glad you have been enjoying life and all that it offers. Continue on, I haven’t been feeling to well these day’s. Blood pressure and my knees have been giving me a fit. Hopefully both will soon subside with their troublesome issues. Well going to go for a drive now, going to see a friend whom just got out of the hospital. Well thanks again and will be chatting with you soon, Ed.June 2, 2014 at 6:38 am #57951
Well hope you get to feeling better Ed. Yesterday I was doing some work on laying some stepping stones before we have to head out for our nephews wedding. Came up about 8 short so headed to the lumber yard. I was loading these on the pickup. I picked one up and turned to put it in the back end and tweaked my back. So a little sore and slow moving this morning. May have to go see the bone doctor if it is not better in a day or two. Anyway enjoy the movement and learn. Have a great week.
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