Hermle 451

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  • #48179
    don1954
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 8
    • Total Posts: 29

    Hi,Bob This is the clock ive been workin on. Can anyone help me out with my Hermle 451-050 75cm i took it all apart and cleaned it using a ultrasonic cleaner it was in terrible shape and was locked up
    It looked like someone used a spray lube on it.The stuff all ran down and clogged up the gears and everything. some pivots were bent i straightend them and have put it back together. It will run for about ten minutes. Im having a hard time getting the escape wheel adjusted. I can get it to tick tock nice and will run with all the chime train gears out of it, but i put the chime train gears back in and it will only run five to ten minutes. I think its because i cant figure out how to get everything in time meaning the chime arms and such. Like a dummy i didnt mark them when i took them apart. Theres a quarter hour chime and a hour chime i have the heavest waight to the right.
    I have the hermle Service manual but that tells me nothing on actual repair and timing the hour and chime train part.
    Can anyone help me out or give me a site to show me how to set the timing?
    Thanks Don

    #51062
    Bob Tascione
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 1559

    Hi Don1954,
    Let me check to see if I can locate some info on building the movement train for your Hermle.
    When you say that you’re having a tough time getting the escape wheel adjusted I’m assuming you’re talking about setting the beat. If I’m wrong then please let me know. You may already be aware that your Hermle movement has an “auto beat” function which will automatically set the beat close enough for acceptable performance. If this is new to you then all you need to do is move the pendulum all the way to one side and let it begin swinging. It will then begin setting the beat with each oscillation of the pendulum until it reaches normal amplitude. Pretty cool design.

    It sounds like you have the heavy weight on the correct side. The heavy weight drives the “chime” train.
    The fact that the clock is stopping when the time and strike train are assembled could be caused by a number of things. It may just be that the time train is running at less than full capacity and just can’t muster up enough power to activate the chiming sequence. You might try installing any activating levers without installing any of the chime train wheels to see if the time train has enough power to lift them without stopping. Through this process of elimination I can usually zero in on a problem fairly quickly.

    I’m going to try to hunt down some assembly info for you today to see if there’s something out there that can help.
    I’ll be back in a little while.
    Bob

    #51063
    don1954
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 8
    • Total Posts: 29

    Thanks Bob, im trying everything, Mine is a dead beat type if that matters with the beat i have been moving the pallet up and down a little each time if i get it to high the pallet wiil start missing the escape wheel and if i go down to far it willl just lock it up i have got the tick tock pretty close now it has been running for two days now.
    On the time train part the problem is, is that i took every thing off the front, the arms that activate the chime and those little cam peices. i cant figure out where to set those in the correct locating. looking at it i think everything has to be set in time like the hour gear so when that comes around it will move the are for the hour chime and the cams up on the right top side have to be set so as the arms will lift correctly for the quarter hour strikes correctly. the little cams have set screws that hold them on so i think they have to be put back on in the corret location to kick the arms up in the right time for everything to work. i hope i explained this right
    thanks again Bob

    #51064
    Bob Tascione
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 1559

    Hi Don,
    I was under the impression that all newer Hermle 451 movements had the auto beat function but I may very well be wrong.
    You can tell if it’s an auto beat by looking at the escape wheel. They are different looking than the usual wheel. I’ve included a pic. of one used with auto beat. If your movement does have auto beat it’s very important not to clean it in your clock cleaning solution and never oil it as the clutching tension is set to the exact amount necessary for the it to function properly.

    I’ve hunted around and haven’t been able to find any info on building up the chime or strike. If I had a movement with me down here in Mexico I would take a series of assembly pics. for you. I will be going up to the U.S. in just a few days and will grab an old movement to bring back down here and will definitely do a series of assembly photos to throw up on the course. You’ll probably have it all figured out by then but I still want to do it as it may be helpful to others in the future.

    I’ve included a photo of the front of the movement just to give you an idea of where the levers go etc. Not sure if it will be of any help but…just in case. If you’re using windows you can zoom in by holding down the Ctrl key while clicking the + key. You can zoom back out by Ctrl and – key.

    Maybe someone up here has a schematic or access to some pics that can help you.

    Bob
    Hermle-451-050.jpg
    Hermle-auto-beat.jpg


    #51065
    don1954
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 8
    • Total Posts: 29

    Hi Bob,
    I finally got the Hermle together and figured out the timing,dang what a project i had it apart and together a hundred times. The problem i got now is that it runs fast about an hour a day fast. I have the pendulim all the way down almost off the threads.
    I have the beat set great i think it sounds good. I did replace the escape wheel with a new one.I still have a hard time getting the verge set right if i move it to high it misses the escape wheel and am a fraid to lower it to much in fear the pallet will breake the escape wheel. there is two screws holding the peace with the pivot hole in it for the verge.I think i got the name of these right. Got any ideas how exactly to set the verge thing so the clutch will adjust corectly. And why its running so fast? could it be not setting the verge correctly that the beat is off causing it to run fast?
    Thanks Don

    #51066
    Bob Tascione
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 1559

    Hi Don,
    Fist congratulations on figuring out the chiming set up!
    It is possible that the locking depth is a little too shallow allowing a tooth or teeth to skip past. I usually set the depth just to the point where the tooth lands on the locking face of entry and exit pallets, then add a tiny bit more depth to be safe and then watch how it performs for a while to see if more depth is needed. I was wrong about all of the newer Hermle movements being autobeat. I did a little research after my last post and found that the 451 movements use both autobeat deadbeat escape wheels and regular deadbeat escape wheels.
    I didn’t quite understand from your post whether the clock is staying in beat. You mentioned that you have the “beat set great” but then later said something about the clutch (autobeat?) not adjusting correctly and possibly going out of beat. Is that correct? Is it falling out of beat over time and did you determine that it has autobeat function? If so then it sounds like the autobeat tension is too loose and needs some attention. Can usually tighten them up and we can discuss how to do it if that’s the case.
    Bob

    #51067
    don1954
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 8
    • Total Posts: 29

    Hey Bob i will try to upload pic of what i got im not sure how to do it the pic is really big i dont really know the difference between auto
    beat and dead beat i just know that the escape wheel i ordered had to be a dead beat one they were different. if you can make any thing out in the pic you will see what i mean about the ckutch that round thing behind the verge i think is the clutch i can hold the swing arm on the back and move the verge from one side to the other.
    I knocked the swing arm off to one side so i held the verge and moved the swing arm so that it was center up and down again.and also had to bend it out away from the movement to get the beat right.i will try lowereing the verge so it contacts the escape wheel deeper and see if that slows the time down. ill keep messing with trying to attach pictures so there smaller

    #51068
    willofiam
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 75
    • Total Posts: 1437

    Hello Don and Bob. its just me with some questions about this if I can intrude Don as I am learning from your issue. please dont take offense with my thoughts… I think you would have a greater chance of breaking teeth on the escape wheel if is not in far enough…. is the escapement on right?????, something doesnt seem right to me (that is probably just me though) and is the pendulum and suspension fully seated????? did you change anything in the suspension???? I had a vienna wall clock that had a peice that slid up and down the 5 rods of the pend. suposedly for changeing the center of oscilation??? I had to move it down to get the timing right as it too was running fast…. the other question I have is, how much time can you change with an adjustment to the degree of locking on the pallet????? sorry for the intusion and I will be watching and hoping you get this figured out Don, have a great day, oh by the way, the next one will be a breeze :D , keep on keepin on. William

    #51069
    Bob Tascione
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 1559

    Hi guys,
    No problem at all William, happy you jumped in here!
    Those pictures were a total surprise. I wasn’t expecting to see a strip pallet at all. That is a friction clutch but I don’t think it’s an auto beat unless the escape wheel that you replaced looked like the one I uploaded in a previous post. They are very strange looking with each tooth having a step on it. The autobeat that I’m referring to is entirely different looking. I think William makes a good point. Whether a stick pendulum or the type that he mentioned make sure that everything is down where it should be. The bob may appear to be all the way down the stick but could be deceiving.
    You mentioned that the escape wheel looks different than the previous one. In what way? Have you counted the teeth and pinion leaves on both wheels. If the replacement has fewer teeth then the clock will run fast.
    Enjoy,
    Bob

    #51070
    willofiam
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 75
    • Total Posts: 1437

    hey guys, just reading in practical clock repairing by Donald deCarle about the effects of circular error and the degree of arch, my last question about how much can you change the time by adjusting the pallet lock on the escape wheel I think is being answered in this book. kind of confusing but anyway it looks like the change of rate would only be in seconds and not near as much as you are saying yours is changing. I am thinking it has to be something else and like Bob is saying possibly the escape wheel or the pinion.

    #51071
    don1954
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 8
    • Total Posts: 29

    thanks guys for the response, Not sure william what you mean by is the escape wheel on right i bought it with the pinion and all so all i had to do it put it in it only goes one way. I think your asking if i may have put it on backward if so no i got the hole thing.i checked everything is in place and everything is in the lowest point. The escape wheel has the same amount of teeth 29 but i did look close at the old one and it dosent appear to have those steps you see on this one Bob.
    William what do you mean by how much time can i change with an adjustment to the degree of locking the pallet?
    Bob what i meant about the teeth that looked different was when i was ordering the escapmet i look at the auto beat and it looked different than mine so i ordered the deadbeat because it looked closer to mine but looking at it like i said and you said it has steps on it and the old one dont unless there worn off.
    I lowered thepallet down and it makes the clock stop and also cant get it in beat it seems to dig in and makes alot of sounds but the tick tock lol.
    im not sure now if i should order anothe escape wheel and pinion or not like i said it runs real fast but did not before i cleaned it up it alway kept good time.the pendulim nut used to be screwed up so a inch and a half of thread was showing noe the nut is almost off the pendulim and everything is all the way down and it correct place.
    Thanks guys Don

    #51072
    Bob Tascione
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 1559

    This is a strange one Don. If it kept time before and all conditions are the same ie: escape tooth count, pendulum, bob, leader, suspension spring or any changes in the suspension as William suggested then I’m still leaning toward skipping escape wheel teeth. An out of round escape wheel, bent escape arbor pivot, or broken tooth tip or tips can result in skipping. You can check for out of round by removing the weight and then the anchor and advance the train slowly by hand while watching the tips of the escape wheel teeth. You can use anything as a visual reference. Another thing, and this is a long shot, is one of the wheels in the time train from the center wheel up to the escape arbor may have a broken, bent or topped off tooth or teeth. This will cause the train to jump ahead to the next good tooth which will jump the dial train ahead. Also a badly bent pivot somewhere in these same time train wheels might cause wheel teeth to skip ahead but will usually stop the clock when the high side rotates around and engages the pinion. But…maybe?
    It’s late so maybe a good nights sleep will bring us some fresh ideas in the morning.
    To productive dreams!
    Bob

    #51073
    willofiam
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 75
    • Total Posts: 1437

    Hi Don, what I was trying to figure out was what I think you were getting at, @Don1954 wrote:

    .i will try lowereing the verge so it contacts the escape wheel deeper and see if that slows the time down.

    the idea that if the escape wheel is held in place a little longer with the pallets because it enters the escape wheel farther then the pendulum would have to swing a little farther and therefore slow down the time, I need to read more on this, I am thinking that for it to run properly the adjustment to the verge,pallets and escape wheel teeth are critical and need to be within certain tolerances, measurements..and like I had posted earlier if those are adjusted in anyway the amount of time change is minimal. if you dont have it this is a good book “practical clock repair by Donald deCarle” hey 😯 I just realized you have the same name, could that mean ………. anyway. most certainly could be wrong as my knowledge is yet limited, (this kind of interaction helps me learn though) but the deadbeats I have come across or have read about usually have a impulse face that the escape wheel teeth slide off of, and from the pics, it is hard to really see but to me it doesnt seem that way on yours and thats why I asked if the verge was put on the right way, not trying to make you feel bad or anything :D just trying to learn something, well here is a question, which way according to your pics does the escape wheel turn????

    #51074
    don1954
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 8
    • Total Posts: 29

    Hi guys
    I have done everything you guys ask and everything looks great. i took the escape mec. out and turned the minute shalft with my finger tips and it spun free. it only slowed when it came to the chime cam part but not much that shoed nothing catching. I look at the time train gears and there all turning true and straight, the teeth are in good shape.
    Will the escape gear is moving to the right in the picture. I will send some more picture for you guys th look at.
    Today i am going to put the escape mec. back in and adjust it up untill its starts to slip teeth the lower it slowly untill it causes the cloc to stop the back up slowly untill i can get the beat correct, but i know this is not going to solve the fast time problem.
    I did replace the hour snail on the fron and the minute gear and moom gear with brass ones. i counted the teeth on all the gears that were replace and they all have the same amount as the old ones. so as far as i can see everything is the same as before i started fixing on it.
    Bob what i meant about it ran fine before i fixed it was way back ten years ago it ran fine and i had an old guy clean and service it from his home and shortly after i got it back it stopped working and has never ran sence. The old guy passed away so i could’nt take it back to him. now after ten years of setting i became disanled and am trying to fix it my self.
    If i dont go completely nuts im sure between us we can figure this out i hope.



    #51075
    Bob Tascione
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 1559

    Hi Don,
    It’s hard to tell from your picture (the one with the escape over to the right on desk) but the teeth on that escape wheel look blunt and damaged. Could just be a blurry pic but when I zoom in it sure looks like the tips are blunted. They think they should have fine pointed tips. The reason that I asked you to remove the verge and observe the escape wheel teeth was to make sure they were all the same height as they slowly passed a point of reference. At this point I still feel your problem lies here (skipping teeth) if all other conditions remained the same. I’ll find a pic to put up here of a Hermle escape wheel and will re-size your pics too.
    Back in a bit.
    Bob

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