Another bound-up train…Redux

[Bob Tascione]

trying to keep the pallet stones in the drop to lock position on the escape wheel while flipping the movement over to take photos through the observation holes.

Sorry Tom, that never occurred to me. I guess you could pull it off if you’re really, really fast!
One thing that may work (not sure though) is to place a tiny piece of folded tissue paper under the lever and then slide it over until a tooth escapes and lock takes place. That may just hold it in position without the run kicking in?
If not then yes, if you can get a good close up shot from the other side that might do the trick. Also a couple of pics pulled back far enough to include the pallet pivot point along with the drop to lock position would be helpful. Close ups of the entry and exit lock will help to determine if they are equal. While the pics that include the pallet pivot point will give us an idea of the lock angle.

Are we having fun yet?
Bob

[tmac1956]

Bob:

I’ll give that a try as soon as I can.

Thanks!
Tom

[tmac1956]

Bob:

I’m not sure if this is correct. The fork is almost to the banking pin on both sides.

Fork to right banking pin as viewed from the top:

Fork to left banking pin as viewed from the top:

So do I need to turn the banking pins out a little?

Thanks!
Tom

[Bob Tascione]

Good pics Tom!
Is the lever clear of both the banking pins in these pics? Are those the exact lock positions of the pallets before any slide occurred? If so we’re in trouble.
I know it’s tough getting those pics so you can just try it (without a camera) by winding the watch a couple of clicks again and then make a mental note of the amount of lock on one pallet (before the slide takes place) and then do the same with the other pallet. What we’re after is an even lock and even drop. If it turns out to look about the same as the pics you put up then it looks like it’s time to adjust the stones.

Good luck,
Bob

[tmac1956]

Bob:

I placed about one wind of the mainspring on the train and pushed the pallet fork toward the right banking pin to the point where the stone was just about to drop off of the tip of the escape wheel tooth. Then, I flipped it over and took the pictures, and repeated the process on the opposite pin. Unfortunately, the other stone was no where near dropping off. It does look as if the stone in the second group of pictures is too long. I have a lapping wheel and can grind down the end if needed. If it is too long, then I’ll need to do that because its already hard up against the slot into which it rests.

Your thoughts?
Tom

[Bob Tascione]

Hi Tom,
Ok, I think understand now. So these pics are not pics of the drop to lock position. What you’re saying is that the exit stone isn’t allowing the escape tooth to escape before the lever is stopped by the banking pin which is already opened to it’s limit? Is the banking pin opened as far possible? If that’s the case then you might be correct about the stone being too long. I’ll put my thinking cap on while downing a cup of coffee this morning to see if that helps me visualize what’s happening here.

Adios for now,
Bob

[tmac1956]

Bob:

The banking pins are not all the way out. I can turn them out if I need to.

Thanks,
tm

[Bob Tascione]

Hi Tom,
That might be a good idea. If you move both pins out of the way and the lever moves far enough to allow the teeth to escape then you can just observe the lock points on both stones to see if they are equal before attempting to take more pics. If a tooth still can’t pass the exit pallet then the stone may be too long like you said.
Bob

[tmac1956]

Bob:

I’ll do that – thanks for hanging in there with me!

Tom

[tmac1956]

Bob.

I played around with the banking pins but it didn’t seem to make much difference. So, I re-staffed the balance wheel (that I broke the last time adjusted the banking pins) and installed it back into the watch to see how it spun – very nice. Then I re-installed the safety roller, the hairspring (nothing binding here), and put the balance assembly back into the watch. I gave it several winds and… nothing! The roller jewel sits nicely in the pallet fork slot and there appears to be nothing out of order there. Next I took a camel hair brush, gave the balance a light spin, and just as before.. it’ll rotate about 2 times and clack – clack – stop.

It looks like the pallet stone on the exit side isn’t clearing the escape tooth. Ok… what’s next?

Thanks!
Tom

[chris mabbott]

Tom this is probably a dumb question but, I’ve just gone through a similar problem, in fact, an almost identical one..

When you reassembled the watch, after cleaning, did you check to see if the train ran smoothly without the pallet fork installed?

[tmac1956]

Chris:

Yes – it’s very smooth. I can wind it up and the power is exhausted smoothly. Additionally, before I placed the mainspring in, I used a piece of peg wood to move the train and I would smoothly move.

Thanks,
Tom

[chris mabbott]

Tom,

When you changed the staff did you install the balance wheel/new staff in the movement without the roller and HS?

How much end shake did you have and if it spun freely with a puff of air, did it come to a gradual stop?
Usually when you acquire a new staff they’re a tad longer on the top pivot, I always have to file the top down..

Also, how is the guard pin, is it contacting the roller edge? To check you can put a little Prussian blue around the table then check the rub marks. Or you can use a felt tip if blue isn’t available.

If you still suspect that the problem is the pallet, you can start to eliminate possible causes. Remove the escape wheel and test the action of the balance/ roller jewel in the fork. Also you can then check the guard pin contact.. I didn’t notice but is this a single or double roller?

[tmac1956]

@Chris Mabbott wrote:

Tom,

When you changed the staff did you install the balance wheel/new staff in the movement without the roller and HS?

Yes.

@Chris Mabbott wrote:

How much end shake did you have and if it spun freely with a puff of air, did it come to a gradual stop?
Usually when you acquire a new staff they’re a tad longer on the top pivot, I always have to file the top down..

Other than eyeballing it, the end shake which seemed good andthe balance did run free and true coming to a slow eventual stop – per Bob’s videos basically.

@Chris Mabbott wrote:

Also, how is the guard pin, is it contacting the roller edge? To check you can put a little Prussian blue around the table then check the rub marks. Or you can use a felt tip if blue isn’t available.

I looked at the clearance under the microscope and it looked fine. I have some Prussian blue – I think I’ll give it a try as I couldn’t see the guard pin in all positions as it rotates.

@Chris Mabbott wrote:

If you still suspect that the problem is the pallet, you can start to eliminate possible causes. Remove the escape wheel and test the action of the balance/ roller jewel in the fork. Also you can then check the guard pin contact.. I didn’t notice but is this a single or double roller?

It’s a single piece safety roller.

Thanks!
Tom

[Bob Tascione]

Hi Tom,
Sounds like you’ve made some progress. There are a few more things that you can check such as bent escape arbor pivot, out of round escape wheel, worn pallet arbor pivot hole and broken escape wheel hole jewels etc. We can run through these things as well as a few questions I have very quickly on the phone. If possible, give me a good time to call you tonight or whenever when you can have the watch in front of you to run through some tests. We’ll put the results of the tests up here for others that may be following this thread. This should save you a ton of time going back and forth.

Adios for now,
Bob

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