Another bound-up train…Redux

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  • #49199
    tmac1956
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 171
    • Total Posts: 1259

    All

    I finally got around to putting this movement back together (the balance assembly is not installed). Per Bob’s requirements, I pushed the pallet up against each banking pin held in place with a small piece of watch paper. Then I flipped it over, back lighted it, and took shots through the observation holes.

    Without further bloviating…

    Fork against left banking pin (as seen from the top):

    Fork against right banking pin (as seen from the top):

    It looks like one jewel is to long and the other is too short. However, I’m probably wrong about it.

    Thanks for all of your help. Perhaps at some point I can get this thing running.

    Tom

    #59201
    willofiam
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 75
    • Total Posts: 1437

    Hey Tom, I think Bob was looking for photos of the depth of the lock, meaning if you had the escape wheel tooth “heel” on the other side of the pallets = “locking surfaces” ….with the same 4 type of pictures that would tell the story. ;) have fun, William

    #59202
    tmac1956
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 171
    • Total Posts: 1259

    William:

    As if I didn’t have enough problems positioning the watch on the microscope base to get those pictures, I now have to move the escape wheel at the same time. I’m not sure I can control the thing but, I’ll try. I guess I should call 1-800-Wah-Wah. ;)

    Thanks!
    Tom

    #59203
    david pierce
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 90
    • Total Posts: 1360

    Tom,
    I think Bob is ultimately going to have to figure this one out. I have a diagram of a lever escapement in front of me from a book by Harold Kelly. From the drawing it looks like pallet arm should be set back 5 degrees from dead center against the banking pins on each side. This should be the initial banking pin position From this position the locking face of the tooth should be set on the locking face of the receiving pallet jewel at a distance of 1/3 the length of the impulse face. The jewel will have to be adjusted in and out to achieve this. Once that is done rock the pallet over to the exit banking pin which should be also set to position the pallet arm 5 degrees from dead center in the other direction. Again move the locking face of the escape wheel to the locking face of the exit jewel and adjust the stone in and out so the locked position is 1/3 the thickness of the locking face. This should put you at a theoretical starting point. This may be incorrect but it looks like it might be worth a try.
    david

    #59204
    tmac1956
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 171
    • Total Posts: 1259

    David:

    Thanks for the post – it’s thorough as usual. Ironically, when you posted this I was on the phone with Bob. While I thought I had power on the train, I really didn’t so I’ll need to correct that and when I do, I should be able to provide some meaningful photos.

    Believe it or not but I think there’s some learning going on here. :D

    Thanks buddy!
    Tom

    #59205
    david pierce
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 90
    • Total Posts: 1360

    Tom,
    I just pulled out a copy of THE WATCH REPAIRER’S MANUAL by H.B. Fried and turned to the section called “How to Find the Position of Beat”. Under “Points to Be Checked” there is a diagram of the escapement section showing the mechanism “in beat”. In the diagram the pallet arm is centered over a line formed from the center of the escape wheel, the pallet arm pivot and the balance wheel pivot. The roller jewel is centered between the pallet forks, and the regulator is set to the dead center position. Once this is done the receiving stone impulse face needs to be aligned (centered and contacting) the impulse face of the escape wheel. The banking pins still need to be initially set to allow the arm to rock 5 degrees in either direction. After that they can be tweeked in for the proper amount of lock. Once the receiving stone is set, the exit stone can be set by eye allowing for the lock and drop. This looks like another step in the right direction.
    david

    #59206
    tmac1956
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 171
    • Total Posts: 1259

    All:

    I got the power issue resolved and then I adjusted the banking pins so that the lock looked something like I’ve seen before – just eyeballing it so to speak .

    Well, the photography is getting easier. The digital camera insert was free to move around (based on the USB cable tension) so – depending on it’s position – up can be down, left can be right – you get the picture. It’s amazing what a little drafting tape can do.

    Here are the new pics…
    Pallet fork hard up against LEFT banking pin (as seen from the top) – movement flipped over and pictures taken through the observation holes:

    Pallet fork hard up against RIGHT banking pin (as seen from the top) – movement flipped over and pictures taken through the observation holes:

    Much thanks to all – especially Bob and David…
    Thanks!
    Tom

    #59207
    Bob Tascione
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 1559

    Perfect pics Tom!
    Thanks for putting them up and good to know you got that barrel cap seated correctly.
    I don’t think you will need to reset the stones. It doesn’t look like you have a problem from what I can see in the pics. but might be something that isn’t showing. In our phone conversation yesterday I think you said that the balance staff is still broken so you can’t test with the balance in place yet. Is that correct or did I misunderstand what you said? When moving the lever from one banking pin to the other are you seeing good lever action? In other words does the lever snap over to the other banking pin? I usually like to set the lock shallow to run some tests and then gradually deepen it for safety after everything acts well.
    Let me know what you come up with on that lever action.

    Bob

    #59208
    chris mabbott
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 119
    • Total Posts: 1525

    Tom,

    I’ve been following this with great interest as it’s an area I’ve only delved into when needed, and that need was last required a year ago.
    So this is a good rinder of what I don’t know!

    To tell you the truth, once I’m flipped upside down I’m lost, so your great pics are much help in regaining my equilibrium 😆

    Is this a 3/4 plate you’re working on?
    I usually work on 18s full plates and they’re a PITA to check the banking action on!

    Thanks for posting this and again, lovely shots…

    #59209
    tmac1956
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 171
    • Total Posts: 1259

    Bob:

    Yes – I still have to replace the balance staff and I hope to do it this weekend. I’ll need to check the lever action; however, I did notice that the escape wheel is now moving when I move the fork from one pin to the other.

    Thanks!
    Tom

    #59210
    tmac1956
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 171
    • Total Posts: 1259

    Chris:

    While this watch is a 3/4 plate, most of the watches I’ve “worked on” in the past have been full plate watches and yes… it is difficult to see what’s going on once you install the top plate. Even that can be problematic as I’ve broken a few pallet fork pivots in the process. Bob gave me a great tip about turning the movement upside down to facilitate pivot/jewel hole alignment.

    Thanks!
    Tom

    #59211
    Bob Tascione
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 1559

    Hi Tom,

    I did notice that the escape wheel is now moving when I move the fork from one pin to the other.

    That’s good to know because we will be testing the drop to lock and run to banking under very low power. An even power transfer will make the testing process easier.

    When I say;

    I don’t think you will need to reset the stones. It doesn’t look like you have a problem from what I can see in the pics

    I am comparing these pics to the pics in a much earlier post you made that showed us pallet stone positions that would never permit the escapement to function. By viewing the installed components in place in these new clear, correctly angled close up shots we can now see that IF these stones are already adjusted for correct drop to lock and run to banking is set correctly then this lever can possibly work without having to make the further stone adjustments that you considered making earlier.

    When I say:

    but might be something that isn’t showing

    I’m referring to what our tests reveal…nope you’re not done yet :).

    The reason I asked about having a functioning balance assembly was more or less curiosity. Just wondering if you still had that jamming problem. We don’t need the balance at all to move forward from here.

    Assuming your photos are showing the lever up against the banking pins AND the drop to lock does not take place the instant the lever makes contact with the banking pin, then what we’re viewing is the TOTAL lock consisting of both the drop to lock (exact point of contct where escape wheel tooth is intercepted by a pallet stone after unlocking occured from the opposite stone) and run to banking (the sliding or drawing action of an escape tooth up the locking surface of a stone) .

    What we want to determine first is this drop to lock.

    If the train is under high power it will be difficult to determine this point as the run to banking will immediately take place at high speed. This is when it’s important to use just enough power to bring an escape tooth up against the stone but not so much power for run to bank to take place. In a smooth running train one or two winding clicks should do the trick and will be sufficient for the tooth to stay at it’s drop to lock location. The drop point SHOULD BE EQUAL on both pallets. If it is not then a stone will need to be adjusted. If drop to lock and drop is equal but locking is too shallow or too deep then BOTH STONES will need adjusting.

    So…what we need to see next Tom would be two photos of both stones in the DROP TO LOCK POSITION. Sorry ’bout that :) You can probably determine whether the locking is correct without any further help by looking at some diagrams but I’m hoping that you’ll continue to show the process for others following this thread.

    Please let us know if anything I said here is unclear and also what you find out Tom,

    Bob

    #59212
    tmac1956
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 171
    • Total Posts: 1259

    Bob:

    This is very helpful and clear. I’ll be back and post more pictures as soon as I can.

    Thanks again!
    Tom

    #59213
    tmac1956
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 171
    • Total Posts: 1259

    Bob et. al:

    It’s frustrating (visualize choice expletives) trying to keep the pallet stones in the drop to lock position on the escape wheel while flipping the movement over to take photos through the observation holes. If I can get the lighting right, I might be able to get adequate pictures from the top of the movement which would also show the relation of the pallet fork arm to the banking pins. Well… unless someone can give provide me with a workable alternative, that’s the direction in which I’m going to have to go (if I’m going to keep my sanity that is). ;)

    Just FYI..
    Tom

    #59214
    chris mabbott
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 119
    • Total Posts: 1525

    Tom, I’m just working on a 16s and doing the same checks as you.. all I can say after working on 18s full plates for the past 8 months is….LUXURY 😆 I can see the damn things WooHoo 😯

    The other thing I said was… Where’s the demaskeening 🙄

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tmac1956Another bound-up train…Redux