Waltham 1891 – Erractic and Jewel Cracked

[sstakoff]

I’ve been away from the bench for a few weeks, but back again! I have a Waltham 0 Size, Model 1891 Seaside Grade 15Jewel movement that was running erratically. I gave it a full service and found that the mainspring was set. I had a close substitute that I’ve installed, but it slips on occasion, so I have a proper replacement on order. I can get enough power stored in the substitute to do some basic testing, etc. I found that the lower 3rd wheel jewel was cracked. On the timekeeper, the watch runs extremely slow stem down and extremely fast stem up. Dial up/down seems pretty good – I will need to recheck that, but I’m pretty sure it was reading ok. A few questions… Do you think the jewel issue could cause such dramatic swings? I suspect it can. I have attached pics of jewel – plate side and dial side. Also – am I correct in thinking that I can replace this jewel with a Seitz friction jewel???

• This topic was modified 3 years ago by Tamas Richard.

[stevefitzwater]

my suggestion would be a parts movement

from my experience, yes it could..

[sstakoff]

Thank you. I am a but puzzled as to how I’m supposed to ream the new jewel hole as the hole on the dial side is much narrower than
on the internal side. So, a reamer won’t fit all the way through

[stevefitzwater]

Do you have a staking set? or jewel set? they simply press out, normally with a moderate touch.. they look similar to your balance jewels, one side larger then the other, you press on the jewel from the smaller side, then it come out of the larger, the jewel should come out in its mount, replace the whole jewel and mount, and simply press the replacement back in the same way the old one came out. Save the mount, those are sometimes made from gold

If you do not have a staking set, you can use peg wood, but make sure the peg wood is bigger then the jewel surface, you want to press on the mount, not the jewel, if you press on the jewel, it is likely to crack, so if you do not have a staking set, I would recommend picking up a smaller set.

[sstakoff]

Yep – I have a staking and a jeweling set. I was concerned that I may have needed to slightly enlarge the jewel setting hole
with a reamer. The reamer would not be able to pass through the “smaller” side of the plate, so I was puzzled. As it turns
out, I was able to press a new 23/160 jewel into place with no issues!!! Of course, I am still getting some wild readings
on the timekeeper, so I clearly have additional issues. I will need to thoroughly check the balance jewels and pivots. May
need to polish the pivots, etc.
Thanks for your reply!

[stevefitzwater]

demagnetized?

[sstakoff]

Yep – one of the first things I did! I noticed that the lock on the escapement is VERY deep – the stones are way out. I think this watch has been worked on quite a bit. Before moving the stones I am going to need to look carefully to see why someone may have adjusted them that way. I really don’t like messing with the
escapement unless really necessary!

[stevefitzwater]

Since you think the movement has been tweaked, have you checked the clocking of the roller jewel? (making sure when the balance is at rest, it is centered on the pallet), the would cause the high/low on a timer, because one side of the swing is shorter then the other. the closer to centered, the tighter the timing.

[oldmantime]

If it is possible can you give us the difference in rate when changing vertical positions? Extremely slow and extremely fast can mean different things to different people so pegging it down a little closer will be a big help. There are many reasons that you could be getting unequal rates in vertical positions. In addition to checking the beat like Steve suggests I would check that the hairspring is concentric and vibrating freely between the regulating pins – — and has not jumped to the outside of one of the pins — and that it is sharing equal time when in contact with the pins and that the pins are spaced correctly; not to far apart and that it is making contact with both pins in all positions. Then I would remove and check the poise of the balance. Also make a visual check that one of the screws in the balance is not missing. They sometimes do fall out. By not knowing the amount of variation in the rate change it is hard to determine the problem. I forgot to ask, how is the balance amplitude when changing these vertical positions?

Peter

[sstakoff]

Some more info. I removed the hairspring in order to get a very good look at the escapement action under the microscope. I found that the guard pin was rubbing on the roller on one side (zero guard pin shake). So I let out that side banking pin just a drop. Both sides now equal and there is no longer any snowy noise on the timegrapher. The timing data now is as follows. Note that I used a lift angle of 52deg and the watch is in beat ( ~0.3ms beat error).

DD: +0 / 180deg amplitude
DU: +2 / 170deg
SD: -50 / 164deg
SU: +30 / 160deg
SL: +144 / 156deg
SR: -131 / 156deg

I still believe that the pallet stones are way too far out, but I don’t think that explains the above. The hairspring does not appear to be hitting anything.
It’s possible that it’s a slight bit out of center – a little hard to tell with the overcoil,so maybe that could explain some of this. I should probably give
the balance pivots a nice polish as well. The balance jewels look ok. Hairspring is in between the regulator pins – equal contact with each pin. No balance screws missing.

Also – the amplitude seems quite low in general – do you agree?

Stu

[Bob Tascione]

Hi Stu,
Yes. Always a good idea to burnish those pivots if they look a bit rough.
If you remove the pallet and give the stem a turn does the escape wheel reverse spin a few turns when the power runs out? This should tell you if you have a power drop before reaching the escapement and might explain the low amplitude. This should also help you determine whether that 3rd gear hole jewel is a problem. If you get sufficient escape wheel back spin (check it in different positions) then most likely an escapement issue. Like Peter says above concerning the positional error extremes you might check static poise of the balance wheel if you haven’t already. Also can’t rule out your suspicion of pallet jewel adjustment problem.

Bob

[sstakoff]

Thanks Bob – these are great suggestions. Will check when I have some time.
I’ve taken a few days to really study the mechanics and math behind the escapement – so I can
be in a better position to diagnose a potential issue. I read the Chicago School chapters on the
lever escapement and even read Playtner’s paper. Wow – it still amazes me that watchmakers were
able to produce these mechanics some long ago within these tight tolerances and scale.

Stu

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