Vienna Style Clock Goes Out of Beat.

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  • #48185
    arutha
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 85
    • Total Posts: 1536

    Hi all, I have just finished putting back together a Keinzle Vienna Style Wall clock. It needed 3 bushes and a new Time side Mainspring. Its all back together and running but it runs in beat for a few seconds, then runs out of beat for a few seconds then back again. Where should I start looking? Thanks in advance for any help :)
    Paul.

    #51117
    willofiam
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 75
    • Total Posts: 1437

    Hi Paul, funny you bring this up, I might not be much help here, is this a dead beat escapement?? I also noticed the same problem?? in this “Henriech Kielman #55006 vienna style wall clock, dead beat escapement, I was assuming that the escape wheel teeth were just a little bit out of measurements and I have not gotten to the point of knowledge for the math for possible fixes or take the time to measure each distance between the teeth, although I did see on the clock coarse Bob using a escape wheel tooth straightener but I dont know if this would get them back to exact measurements, but then again that may not be the prob. I am waiting for my depthing tool to get here and I will take a much closer look at the situation. I was figuring that as long at it was running o.k. it didnt hurt?????? which brings up the question of tight tollerances and old clocks that have run for years and possibly while out of wack, can we be too critical at times????? we should always strive for perfection in our work, it keeps us on top of things, but like my woodworking if I sand too much in one area to get it perfect I might sand through the veneer and ruin the whole project ;) . I did not notice any thing like lock or drop being different all the way around or anything wrong with the dead face or impulse face of the escape wheel that could cause it to do that (except possible measurements between teeth). hey what about small increase in length of escape wheel teeth or tooth, this would prolong the locking and possibly change the beat???? maybe even one could cause a few beats to be different???? please, this is my first shot at anything technical and would appreciate any correction to my thought on this. Thank you, William

    #51118
    arutha
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 85
    • Total Posts: 1536

    Hi William,
    thank you very much for the reply, it has given me somewhere to start looking. I am going to make a test stand for the movement today as I can only run it in the case at the moment and this is proving to be a bit of a pain. I will mark the teeth on the escape wheel and then see if it goes out of beat in the same place each time, If it does then that would indeed mean the escape wheel is causing the problem. I had a good look at all of the wheels as I went through cleaning the clock and they all looked to be in very good condition. There was some wear to the pallet faces which I polished out but certainly no more wear than I would expect to see in a clock of this age.
    i will have another look this evening and get back to you if I find a problem.
    Thanks again :)
    Paul.

    #51119
    willofiam
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 75
    • Total Posts: 1437

    Hey paul, good idea to mark the escape wheel, I have an idea of checking all the teeth on the escape wheel, tell me what you guys think, I will put up some pics and hope they come thru. using a thin pc. of aluminum i cut it square and scribed 2 lines with a razor blade to mark a center, drilled a hole the size of the arbor, made some reference lines ( it doesnt matter exactly where) and turned the escape wheel using only one point of reference and then checking where the other teeth ended up. I noticed a slight variation of distance from one to the other on this escape wheel, I think combining your idea of having a mark on it would tell the truth :?


    #51120
    arutha
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 85
    • Total Posts: 1536

    Hi William,
    That looks like it would work well as long as you know the arbor and pivots are completely straight. You would be better off devising something that would check the teeth while the wheel is in the clock as a slightly bent pivot or arbor will make the wheel rise and fall but you might not notice it on your tool, I never even thought to check the pivots for straightness before I put the clock back together :( I am going to build a test stand tomorrow so I can get a good look at it while it is running as I cant see much when the movement is in the case.

    #51121
    arutha
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 85
    • Total Posts: 1536

    Hi William, I have now been advised with these clocks that the pallet arbor and escape wheel should not have very much free play in the pivot holes, any excess and it can cause the clock to do exactly what ours are doing. I will take another look at mine later and get back to you.
    Paul.

    #51122
    Bob Tascione
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 1559

    Hi Arutha and Paul,
    I was going to post here last night and re-size the pics above but was only able to get to one post then passed out for the night!
    I think you are both on track. If you’ve checked the arbor and pivot for straightness and have determined that the escape wheel is running true and that tooth spacing is even (preferably check while in the movement as Arutha suggested in his previous post by removing the pallets and then under low mainspring or finger pressure power spin the train slowly while observing the truth of the escape wheel. You can use anything you wish as a background reference point while observing the tooth tips) then the most likely cause would be too much play between pivot/pivots and hole/holes. If it’s following a definite pattern ie: changes beat at the same tooth or group of teeth every time then I would suspect out of round escape wheel, problem with tooth spacing or bent pivot or arbor. If there’s no real pattern then my guess would be pivot slop. Too much play between hole and pallet arbor pivot and or escape wheel pivot can cause irregular beat in most clocks but I’ve found escape wheel run out caused by one or more of the reasons mentioned above or bent or broken escape tooth tips a more common problem for me.
    I hope it turns out just needing a bushing or two.
    Curious to hear the results Arutha,
    Bob

    #51123
    arutha
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 85
    • Total Posts: 1536

    Thanks for the advice Bob, I have put it to one side for the time being, I built myself a movement test stand today and as you will see from my latest post have started on another clock just to have a bit of a break from the Keinzle. I will come back to it soon and will have a good look athe the pivots, arbors, pivot holes and escape wheel.
    All the best,
    Paul(Arutha).

    #51124
    arutha
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 85
    • Total Posts: 1536

    Sorry to drag up an old thread up but I have just finished putting this old clock back together and thought you might find the tale interesting. I had to replace the time side mainspring so I did both at the same time as the strike side looked a bit set. The springs that came out were 18x.50×50. I searched around and found the exact size springs, had a job getting them back in the barrels as they were very strong and once I had the clock back together found they were so stiff I could not wind the clock properly. I spoke to a friend of mine and he told me that because new steel is so much better it is worth dropping down spring size when replacing original old springs, he told me to go for 18x.45×45 which I did and now it is perfect, so be warned, if the springs look old and original, new springs the same size could be too strong. I did a couple more bushings and made sure the escape wheel was a good fit with minimal play and now the clock is running beautifuly. Only thing left to sort out now is to find out why it has decided not to strike, looks like something is binding somewhere. Will keep you posted.
    Paul.

    #51125
    Bob Tascione
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 1559

    That’s good info!
    Thanks Paul,
    Bob

    #51126
    willofiam
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 75
    • Total Posts: 1437

    thanks Paul, let us know what the strike problem is, am currently working on a Seth Thomas hip style movement and it too was binding, I had to synchronize the drop lever with the count lever and whalla 😯 it works fine now. I think I will add a new thread with a devise in this movement. Paul, your the best….William

    #51127
    arutha
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 85
    • Total Posts: 1536

    The best at what William? Putting clocks back together that still dont work properly? I think you could be right ;)

    #51128
    willofiam
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 75
    • Total Posts: 1437

    Well, if they all went together without any problems I dont think we would ever learn anything new…… :D maybe I should have said “your the smartest” 😆 but I have to tell yah, I am right behind you!!!!! William

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aruthaVienna Style Clock Goes Out of Beat.