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March 1, 2013 at 6:01 pm #48510
There are many things you are going to like about your recent lathe purchase. How do you like the price and precision you get from the ER-16 collets? The large motor and industrial belt drive will transmit power to the spindle that is far in excess of anything a WW Lathe can do. You will find that you can drill holes with larger size drill bits and take much heavier turning cuts than you could ever do with a WW watchmaker lathe. Once you become accustom to using a cross slide you will find very little use for the T-Rest/Graver system. Check some industrial supply houses such as ENCO and MSC for items like drill rod, brass sheet, drills, endmills and cutting tools. Also, take a look at the A2Z Quick Change Tool Post. You may want to get one at a later date. Make sure you watch the You Tube videos on making gears with this machine. I think you will find as I did that this is a first rate tool. Let us know how it works out for you.
davidMarch 2, 2013 at 1:04 am #53007
I know you are not very fond of hand gravers but just out of curiosity have you tried to turn a balance staff with a cross slide?
Paul.March 2, 2013 at 6:44 pm #53008tmac1956Participant
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What do you think of the Sherline lathes?
tmacMarch 2, 2013 at 11:25 pm #53009
Yes, but not using the markings on the dials. I always use a dial indicator to position the cutter. The system I worked out is to put a piece of metal in the collet, it does not have to be the part at this stage, and take a cut. Then I measure the diameter of the piece I just cut. Next, I divide the measurement by two and using the dial indicator, crank the cutter in by that amount. This puts the cutter at zero so I zero in the dial indicator. This then becomes a reference for all of the other cuts on the Y axis. The same thing can be done on a larger lathe with a digital readout but dial indicators accomplish the same thing on a smaller scale. For me this is a more consistant and manageable system than I was able to achieve with a graver. I admire what you and Bob are able to acomplish using a graver but my method is more in line with my thought process and it works better for me. I am not opposed to using gravers and feel that they certainly have their place but I do things in a different way.
In the 1970s I served out an apprenticeship in a machine shop. At this time machine work was in a transitional period from the old school tool and diemakers who worked by feel and would polish and grind stuff in, and the new way which was to look at parts as mathematical models. I always admired what those people could do with a die grinder and blueing but they could never make two parts that were the same. As customers became more sophisticated their methods were no longer acceptable and many of them retired out kicking and screaming. In any case there is room for both schools of thought.
davidMarch 2, 2013 at 11:28 pm #53010
I cannot comment on the Sherline lathe because I have never checked one out. I have heard many good reports from others but I have no personal experience with these machines.
davidMarch 3, 2013 at 3:12 am #53011
thanks for the explanation, I only asked because I have never seen a balance staff cut any other way, the next time you do one would it be possible to video it? I love watching machine work and if you could post a video to you tube I think you would get quite a lot of interest. I think it is a trap we can all get caught in, we are taught to do something a certain way and then belive there is no better way to do it. A friend of mine has a pinion cutting machine that he belives came from the Smiths factory. It is quite large and on its own stand. You just set it up with the piece of steel in it (cut to the correct dimensions for the arbor) and it then just cuts the pinion leaves automaticaly. It is amazing to watch it working.
Paul.March 3, 2013 at 8:26 am #53012jdp020351Participant
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- Total Posts: 42
Good Morning Group
I read the forum everyday but have not posted in a while (sorry)
I was just catching up on the forum and came across your post of Tool and Die Makers in the 70’s. I was immediately taken back into time. I was schooled in Tool and Die Making in 1970 and was employed for a few years until the advent of a NEW type of Milling machined attached to a computer (CNC) came into play.
When Mic’ing a piece of stock each student would come up with a slightly different number ( it’s all about the feel)
However I am grateful for the experience and I have been using a little Asian model 7 x 12 Machine lathe for my work in Bob’s course. I haven’t tried hand graving yet but am anxious to jump into it.
Thanks for the walk down memory lane
JerryMarch 3, 2013 at 10:54 am #53013
I have the 9″ model in that series and I like the lathe. My machine shop is in an upstairs spare bedroom and I did not feel that I could get a larger lathe into the room. My first choice would have been a 15″ lathe. My personal opinion of an engine lathe is that it is a brute part cruncher and does not offer a lot of feel. This is true on the small engine lathes as well as the large engine lathes. When a part such as a bolt needs to be made, the engine lathe is my lathe of choice. It has sufficient torque delivered to the spindle to quickly remove metal. The back gears allow you to cut a variety of thread pitches. By grinding the cutters into different forms you can cut standard 60 degree threads, acme threads, square threads, butress threads or whatever you want to cut.
That said, why would I want to use a watchmaker lathe for watch parts. There are two answers (personal opinions) to this. The first answer is they offer almost unsuparssed accuracy. This is not as crucial for larger clock parts but can be devistating to a tiny watch part. If the spindle has a runout of .001 inches and the pivot is .004 inches (.1mm) then the pivot is going to be out of concentricity by 25% of the of the shaft (pivot) diameter. The second reason is not as obvious but is also important. Because of the mass and the turning gears in an engine lathe, vibrations are transferred to the part being machined. These vibrations are transferred into the part and affect surface finish. Watchmaker lathes do not use gears and this problem is completely eliminated.
davidMarch 3, 2013 at 11:34 am #53014
If you are a member of the NAWCC you can view a series of lectutres and videos of several watch factories manufacturing watch parts. Most of the videos can also be seen on Youtube but not the lectures. The videos are from WW 2 so many of the machines are operator controlled and cam controlled. Today these machines have been replaced with CNC equipment but the manufacturing principals are the same. When watches were first produced in watch factories there were rooms full of highly skilled craftsmen (mostly women) turning staffs and pivots with WW lathes and gravers. Even as far back as WW 2 most of this type of production was phased out. This was NOT done because the craftsmen were making bad parts. Part of the reason for the change was economic; more parts could be produced with fewer workers. The other part of the reason was part interchangeability and quality control. By making a part to a mathematical model a part made in one location could be guaranteed to fit into a part made in a completely different location. This allowed many parts to be manufactured by subcontractors thus greatly increasing production. My educational and work background was along these lines so I am more able to relate to this process.
davidMarch 4, 2013 at 6:04 pm #53015ddhix2002Participant
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- Total Posts: 10
I didn’t see you posted this here. I have been in the process of moving, so I have not bought the lathe yet. I am going to order it within the next week probably.
I posted this ins the “How to Tell the Spouse” section. I was pricing everything, and came across these products, and wanted to know your opinion on them. Here is what I posted:
Thank you again for all of your help. I have put together a list of what I think I need. It is a little out of my budget, though. I budgeted about $600-$650, and this is up to $767.53 after shipping of all items. Here are the links to each item I think I need to get me started strong.
Can you please confirm or deny either of the products here?
Thank you again for your expertise. You are a lifesaver.
The lathe with the drilling tailstock, motor, pulleys, everything to get basically started
http://www.ebay.com/itm/150998963658?ss … 1438.l2649
Carbide bits for pivots. I had a hard time finding these. These were the only ones I could find that looked like what I needed.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/310583954759?ss … 1438.l2649
Metric ER-16 Collets. From 0.5mm, 1mm, 2mm all the way to 9mm
http://www.ebay.com/itm/150959210668?ss … 1438.l2649
Imperial ER-16 collets, from 1/32″ to 3/8″. I did the metric conversion for these, and most of them fall near enough to the #.5mm of the metric collets.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330733443318?ss … 1438.l2649
Taig 1190 Steady Rest, for pivot support
http://www.ebay.com/itm/190804036306?ss … 1438.l2649
Taig Tool Rest, for doing pivots with the Steady Rest.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321068270885?ss … 1438.l2649
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221171162161?ss … 1438.l2649
—-March 4, 2013 at 6:24 pm #53016
I posted my response on this thread because the other one was on the third page and getting a little crowded with comments. Also, this thread was more in line with your posting.
davidMarch 4, 2013 at 7:26 pm #53017ddhix2002Participant
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- Total Posts: 10
Thank you for your response. I just re-read everything and am going to start ordering ASAP and get all this set up.
I understand what you are saying about the cross slide. I think I would still like the T-Rest for now, just for starters, to get a good feel for everything. Although I do know the cross slide must be 100x more accurate than hand movements.
Thank you again! I really appreciate it.March 5, 2013 at 7:15 pm #53018
If you want to stay within your budgetary constraints remember you don’t need to buy everything all at once. As far as a graver vs cross slide goes, both methods can turn out good work. The major difference between the two methods is a cross slide allows you to cut to numbers. Once the cutter locations are figured out the cutter can be literally dialed in. Because of the precise control you have over the cutter location, you can make rough cuts without going over tolerance and ruining the part, and, accurately sneek up on the final cut with micrometer controlled increments.
davidMarch 6, 2013 at 11:21 am #53019
DDHix, A cross slide will also allow you to fit a vertical slide and then you almost have the kit for wheel cutting!
David, I missed your earlier question asking if I was a member of the NAWCC, no, unfortunately not. I have thought about joining but not sure of how much benefit it would be to me being in the UK?March 6, 2013 at 7:41 pm #53020
Taig offeres the vertical slide at a very reasonable cost. You can see it in operation on Youtube.
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