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July 6, 2013 at 6:36 pm #53779david pierceParticipant
It is an ACE timing machine and they are still under $200.00. Check out Ebay item # 400167716220. Mine is a simple machine but it does enough for my needs. There are more expensive machines that offer more features that I do not think I will ever need.
davidJuly 6, 2013 at 7:12 pm #53780
Those are pretty impressive and they are under $200.00. I’ll try to get one when I get through with fitting out the drill/mill.
TomJuly 28, 2013 at 5:32 pm #53781
Ok. now I am cornfused (again). The watch is now ringing with as little as one wind and stops in the dial up position. The watch is in beat and the balance wheel, when stopped, automatically starts back up no matter where one stops it so the amplitude looks very strong. It runs good in all other positions. It rings most while in the DU position too.
If it’s overbanking, do I need to change the mainspring out for a plain steel one?
This one has me puzzeled…
TomJuly 29, 2013 at 8:51 am #53782david pierceParticipant
Usually when something stops it is due to one part rubbing against another part. The pivot end should rest against the cap jewel when the watch is in the up or down position but here should also be clearance between the pivot and cap jewel so it floats when in the horizontal position. If the pivot is too short to contact the cap jewel the cone portion will seat into the jewel causing friction. This could mean that the pivot is too short or the jewel and cap jewels are too far out when the watch is in that position. If the jewels cannot be reset than you may have to machine the cone of the staff back a little.
davidJuly 29, 2013 at 10:50 am #53783
TomJuly 30, 2013 at 9:41 am #53784
Hey Tom, Have you looked at the relationship between the fork horns, guard pin and safety roller? I keep thinking there is something amiss there, the guard pin bent, horns touching the roller, roller out of round, also ruby pin and lever notch relationship thru the locking and impulse of the escape wheel, or binding problems in the notch as the jewel enters and exits the notch, banking pins too close and there is no run to banking possibly causing the guard pin to rub? Just some things I would be looking at but I could surely be wrong. have fun, WilliamJuly 30, 2013 at 10:23 am #53785
Well, I looked for some of the items that you mentioned but only as a cursory look before cleaning. This morning I gave the thing a wind and noticed that, when rotated 180 deg. between DU, DD, and then DU again, I could hear what sounded like something falling into (or out of place) – this was accompanied with the “ringing” sound in the DU position which leads me to believe that the end play might not be right with the balance staff. However, it could just as easily be one or more of the possibilities that you listed. So, I suppose my weekend will be full trying to systematically determine and fix the problem.
First I think I’ll take out the balance and see if I can get the bottom cap jewel out without taking the main plate off (It’s a full plate so that’s a pain) to determine how far the pivot extends into the hole jewel. Since the problem is predominantly occurring in the DU position, it seems like the balance jewels are a good place to start. If I can’t see it there, then I’ll move on into the other areas.
I’m ordering a Ace Timegraph this week so that might help a little.
TomJuly 30, 2013 at 11:15 am #53786
Hey Tom, with it all together you can test for endshake, should be slight with the cap jewels on, also that the balance will clear all other parts in DU and DD, BUT I am not sure on what “slight” would be exactly. I would assume it would mean at least perceptible. If endshake is too much it can hit or scrape against some of the other components, I think it would be possible to see this. WilliamJuly 30, 2013 at 12:00 pm #53787
Good idea… will try it.
TomAugust 3, 2013 at 11:16 am #53789
After I uncased the watch, spun the balance wheel and rotated it from DD to the DU position, I not only saw the balance staff fall, but I could hear it as well. Obviously, this caused the balance wheel to stop. It looks like David hit this on the head in the last post. There’s just too much end shake.
My next step is to pull out the balance assembly, remove the top and bottom cap jewels, and caluclate the required balance staff length. For those who might be interested, I will be referencing Fried’s book, The Watch Repairer’s Manual pages 126-128. When I measure the actual length of the staff, I expect that measurement to be less than the calculated length.
Any other thoughts?
TomAugust 3, 2013 at 2:39 pm #53790aruthaParticipant
I am sure you already have thought of this Tom but is it possible that someone in the past fitted an almost correct balance staff? Its not just the pivot length and end shake you have to think about, if the main body of the balance staff is to short, just extending the pivots/pivot could move everything the wrong way i.e. either up or down a fraction depending on which pivot you extend. Hope that makes sense? If you use Fried’s method it will help you determine what the measurements should be. There is nothing to say the last owner didnt pick up a rough balance staff and just cut it a bit so it almost fit.
p.s. deleted duplicateAugust 3, 2013 at 2:44 pm #53788
Yes – that’s what I thought as well. It might not be the over-all length; it could be an intermediate dimension. Or, it could be both I suppose. I guess I’ll find out as I work through it. I’ll post my findings. At least now I know where the problem is which is a better position than before.
Thanks for the advise.
TomAugust 6, 2013 at 3:08 pm #53791
After some dimensional chasing I was able to get what I believe to be a valid overall calculated balance staff length. The bottom pivot jewel of this watch sits in a plate saddle like some of the Waltham’s that I’ve worked on, so calculating that length wasn’t as straight forward as presented in Fried’s book. Anyway… here are the results…
Calculated length to the underside of the top and bottom cap jewels = 0.247”
Actual pivot-to-pivot length=0.2315”
The difference is therefore 0.016”
Sixteen thousandths is a small number and considering that there has to be some measurement error, I’m not sure how much this is really worth.
TomAugust 6, 2013 at 7:06 pm #53792
Well I found the specifications for these Elgin balance staffs and I found them here of all places! Well sort of…
I know from the Swigart catalog that this watch can have one of two staffs:
An Elgin #857 long hub
An Elgin #857 short hub
Since the chart shows two sizes, I’m thinking that these short and long hub sizes are reflected in those data. According to the chart, one length is 5.97mm (0.235″) and the other 6.10mm (0.240″). My thought is because the balance staff installed in my watch measured close to the short hub (0.232″ measured versus 0.235″ specs), and my calculated length for the watch is closer to the long hub (0.245″ measured versus 0.240″ specs), that a short hub was mistakenly installed in the watch. Perhaps this would account for the excessive end shake.
Am I reaching here?
TomAugust 7, 2013 at 7:42 am #53793
Hey Tom, sounds like your on the right track, I would suppose changing a complete balance is rather common, possibly a parts watch to this one without seeing or knowing the difference. here is a little info on the Elgin balance staff
Sorry Paul could not see how to make these smaller, William
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