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October 28, 2014 at 1:38 pm #49290
Well, I think I made a mistake by not removing the cap jewel from the balance with Rodico – I pushed it out the back side instead, which, unknown to me, was pushed through via the hole jewel. So, two jewels came out, they’ve been cleaned, and now they need to go back in. Only, the bottom hole jewel (I’m placing the flat side toward the balance staff) is not going in so easily. I’ve found a toot that matches the outer perimeter of the jewel within my staking set – which brings me to my question:
Should I use my staking set to reinstall the hole jewel? If so, what is the technique? If not, HEEEELLLLLLPPPPPP!!!
I appreciate it
TimOctober 28, 2014 at 3:02 pm #60070
Tim, ehh, I’m not sure what you’re trying to convey here but, did you push the jewel out of its setting by mistake?
Or, did you mean that you’re simply trying to reinstall the jewels back into the balance?October 28, 2014 at 3:55 pm #60071
Tim, If you use your staking set to replace the jewel setting, make certain that the stake/punch has a hole at the part that contacts the jewel or you could break the jewel. So the outer part needs to be the same diameter as the brass/gold setting, the hole needs to be large enough to miss hitting the jewel.
I use a piece of pegwood with a slight concave end then gently tap it with a hammer. Some of them can be very tight, make certain they’re installed straight or they could bind or worse, bend if forced. If that happens, you’re STRANDEDOctober 28, 2014 at 4:22 pm #60072
Awesome Chris, thanks.
It’s a tight fitting jewel – and yes, it’s still in the setting. I’ll be sure to do all you said to do this safely. Thanks! TimOctober 28, 2014 at 4:55 pm #60073
Use pegwood to really clean well, the hole in the balance cock before fitting the jewel. You can also apply a little oil on the inside race of the cock to make it slide in better.
Hamiltons are famous for their tight fitting jewels. Good luckOctober 28, 2014 at 5:12 pm #60074
Double post..October 29, 2014 at 2:48 am #60075
Thank you Chris!
Update: <u>ALL JEWELS ARE PROPERLY WITHIN THEIR RESPECTIVE SETTINGS.</u> You were not the only one who asked, Chris Special thanks to brother Joe, who helped me offline in an email while I called out for help due to being in a “bind” Haha – I sent an SOS smoke signal up for him!
So, I’m not an artist – full disclosure. However, I feel like I need to attach a sketch (and, I use the term sketch VERY loosely:) so I can get a few things straight. The main points – and I will state these in the affirmative and as fact, just so we can make the distinction if needed. I WANT to know if my sketch is majorly wrong. Here is a description explaining everything I think it is:
1. Cap jewels are on the opposite and outermost sides of hole jewels (not just always on “top”.) From this outermost position, and moving inward toward the balance from both sides, are the hole jewels:
2. Hole jewels are the points at which the balance staff pivots enter the hole through the “hole jewels.) The ends of these pivots terminate with the cap jewels, on the outermost point of the balance staff ends.
3. When speaking about hole jewels, the FLAT part is always toward the center of the balance staff (or, whatever that particular staff is turning.)
4. <u>QUESTION</u>: See the sketch provided. Do we, as watchmakers, and watchmakers in training, oil between the cap jewels and hole jewels? <u>IF SO, AT WHAT POINT IN THE REASSEMBLY PROCESS DO WE DO THIS OILING PROCEDURE?</u>
Please take a look, and thank you in advance, to see if those statements listed above are true, and if the sketch accurately reflects that as well.
Thanks, also Chris, for the tips on using pegwood for the holes, and also for those great tips on using my staking tool (FOR THE FIRST TIME!!!) (Timster jumps up and down), as well as the tip on pre-oiling that race (I had wondered whether or not I could do that!), as well as sizing the proper stake. Boy, do I have that thing sized properly – I used my micrometer to measure! Awesome having the right tools. It also is a “donut” style, without anything in the center. As soon as I get my other answers, I’ll press forward, both literally and figuratively!
This watch is actually an 11 jewel Illinois, but I will take that other point about Hamilton’s being notorious for jewels being tightly pressed in to heart.
I also noticed two – what seem to be – two gold posts pointing straight down off the edge of the balance cock, and directly across from the hairspring tang holding screw. Boy, was I glad to have seen those – they look very frail, and quite frankly, I would have most likely broken them off had I not been looking through my mag visor (thanks, Bernie!) By the way, Bernie, I have found that visor to be very, very valuable in and of itself – you can’t beat great lighting, great magnification, and great hands-free use!
Also, I kept hearing Bob in my ear: “Think about what you’re going to do to the balance (and, balance cock, in this case), and if what you’re about to do might hurt it, find a different way! There’s always a different way that is safe and effective.” Thank you, Bob!
Well guys, slower than molasses over on this side, but I like slowwwww…at this point. The mainspring I bought had some “issues,” that I’ll chat about in that one forum post…you’ll see what I mean. Chris, you would be MORTIFIED – an apropos term, seeing as though it’s Halloween…
I look forward to some folks’ answers – and as always, thank you very, very much for helping a lad such as meself!
TimOctober 29, 2014 at 10:50 am #60076randyParticipant
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QUESTION: See the sketch provided. Do we, as watchmakers, and watchmakers in training, oil between the cap jewels and hole jewels? IF SO, AT WHAT POINT IN THE REASSEMBLY PROCESS DO WE DO THIS OILING PROCEDURE?
You generally oil the cap jewel just before you reinstall it. ( one small drop in the center of the clean surface ).
They also make very small oilers that can reach through the hole jewel, and place the oil onto the cap jewel.
I have one of those…you have to be very careful as the tips break very, very easily.
RandyOctober 29, 2014 at 10:58 am #60077
Yep, as sir Randolph as correctly stated, at the point of reassembly, that is if you have cleaned all of the parts previously. I hand clean first, finish rinse, then I remove the jewels for their cleaning, not the written way but it works for moi
Personally, I don’t see any reason for the capillary hole oilers because you’ve already oiled the cap jewel, you’ve applied a drop to the pivot, so no more should be required..
If these are used, it would be after time, which really, the jewels should be removed, cleaned and inspected anyway.October 29, 2014 at 4:26 pm #60078
Thanks, Fella’s –
Randy: Very succinct, very solid, and very useful information. Much obliged!
Chris: As I’m sure I’ll be asking you AT SOME POINT what your preference for oiling and greasing pocket watches is, why don’t we just get that out of the way NOW? Got a few minutes? Of course, I would love to hear from anyone who wants to chime in – it’s just that Chris has some super-secret stuff I’m after haha. OK, Inspector…
Of course, there is NO PRESSURE on me at all. I mean, even NAWCC states “even a Bozo the Clown could do it…” See here:
“Where the oiling of watches is concerned, nothing short of perfection should be accepted.” No pressure at all, right??? Nothing. Short. Of. Perfection. Got it.
😥 👿 🙄 😯 ➡ Everyone laughing at me… 😆 I think I just beat Chris’ all-time-high for emoticon use. Cherry.
I’ve already done some wrong stuff, like leaving my oil well uncapped for a week, etc. You know, skin cells, fuzzies, fluff, fibers, scabs, dandruff, all that stuff – would make watches run more smoothly – right??? Oh yeah – oil also dies in sunlight. NICE!!! By the way, I found all this neat stuff at:
…And it’s FREE!!!
From this and previous discussions, I deduce that:
– You oil all the cap jewels at installation
– You grease EVERY point at which non-staff pivots touch, as in the lever termination bevel, etc. – and you use super-high-tech grease, which impregnates Teflon into both surfaces. Chris, I know you’re right about me not being able to find exactly what you use is probably true, but can you please tell me the name anyway, so I can cross-reference other grease compositions? It would be much appreciated!
– QUESTION: Your method for oiling pallet jewel/escape wheel surface, please? If it’s not “Proprietary” haha, you can just point me in the direction of choice (a specific book, for instance.) That would be great!!!
– QUESTION: In the pocket watch vids, Bob places small drops of oil into “oil cups,” none of which I’ve seen to this point – like the cannon pinion, for instance…am I just not looking closely enough??? Or, does it reappear with reassembly of other items? I figure if I can see and manipulate a screw smaller than just about **anything**, I should be able to see a darn oil cup! Sheesh!!!
Uuuuuummmmmmm, maybe I’m getting a little long-winded…suffice to say that any information provided will be very, very much appreciated. Very. Much.
There are so many things to remember – just about oiling!!! Even a 20 pager is intimidating! I feel so…so inadequate…so small…so…
Well, at least I’ve disassembled a pocket watch – I mean, really, how many people could say they’ve done THAT – AND didn’t break any pivots??? Joe? Pivots, anybody? For those wondering, one day my brother Joe really drove home the message – in about twenty different ways – how NOT breaking pivots would REALLY be helpful to so many of us. These various ways he conveyed this message consisted of numerous syntax arrangements, Morse Code, smoke signals…you get the point…
So, I’ve done ALL THAT, and now I JUST HAVE TO PUT IT BACK TOGETHER!!!
Do they have an emoticon for crickets? I could look for one, or, I could CRACK MY NEW FRIED BOOK I JUST RECIEVED YESTERDAY…Nah, I’ll look for crickets…HA!
OK, I think I’m done totally ruining this post. Hey Chris: Was there ever any classification – similar to “Watchmaker’s Blues” that described how a watchmaker slowly descends into an information-induced stupor, wild-eyed craziness, or an abnormal attraction to pocket watches? There’s gotta be something…
TimOctober 29, 2014 at 6:49 pm #60079
I also noticed two – what seem to be – two gold posts pointing straight down off the edge of the balance cock
All that glitters is not gold 😯 These are called regulating pins, they are attached to the regulator. They allow the HS to be shortened or lengthened without moving the pinned anchor point, thus effecting rate.
Oil Cup: not sure what the question is : I don’t use an oil cup, I drink straight from the bottles. I only use two types of oil, both synthetic, which requires me to dip my spotlessly clean oiler into each only a couple of times. This is my personal choice/method.
Again, like the bow, you have to look at the origins. Cups were originally used when there were many watch repairers/makers in line, during the times when this was a world wide industry employing millions. Oil was expensive, so drops of oil were allocated to each repairer for cost effectiveness, to organize the many different oils, AND more importantly, as a means to prevent over oiling.
I’ve read that supervisors would admonish repairers for using their 2 drop daily supply, as it was deemed that one dip of a number 2 oiler could suffice for the top plate jewels of a 15j movement. The cup was a means of control that simply stayed the test of time and was propogated by the classic watchmaker mystique, hang on let me wind my ticking clocks 🙄 So the 130 yr ago good old oil cup remains unchanged.
During that time, larger quantities of oil were procured, so giving each serviceman a large container was impractical.
Obviously, providing oil is first and foremost… a business, so the more different types used, the better. Some people still keep this oiling pot technique, which is fine, some also use many different oils, which is also fine. But really, apart from viscosity and possibly thickener/petroleum content, and obviously regular versus synthetic, there ain’t much difference in taste 😆
This is my own method and not approved of, probably.
I know you’re right about me not being able to find exactly what you use is probably true, but can you please tell me the name anyway, so I can cross-reference other grease compositions?
PE grasa sintético con teflón – MotoMaster
QUESTION: Your method for oiling pallet jewel/escape wheel I apply a drop of oil to every 4th tooth on the escape, never directly on the stones. This is assuming that you’ve cleaned and buffed the teeth and removed any imperfections. They should glitter under a light source. Some say every 2nd tooth, but I use synth which adheres better to surfaces. On brass wheels I use less because brass is soft so it kinda has a built in lube of sorts, which is why brass to brass, brass to steel. gears, I don’t lube.
QUESTION: In the pocket watch vids, Bob places small drops of oil into “oil cups,” none of which I’ve seen to this point
I think you’re referring to the “Oil Sinks” those little concave divets surrounding the pivots? Some models are different, depending on age, make, model etc. But usually there should be a small hollow spot to take the oil, sometime not though.. Show me the money, in photo form please.
There are so many things to remember
Of course, this is a 4 yr apprenticeship program plus time served with hands on. This is only your first watch so be prepared to do lots of reading, go on you tube and watch videos. More importantly, get hands on experience. You can’t rush this stuff and learn it overnight. You’ll make errors like we all have, but that’s how you learn, no pain no gain, seriously. When you break something, something that costs you out of pocket to repair, you’re 1000 times more aware the next time.
Even many of us who have been doing this for some time, we still commit acts of WTF did I just do 🙄
The learning never ends, niether does the need for tools and parts. William is a perfect example of really starting with this course and with a bare minimum of tooling, now he has an extremely well equiped shop, but it ain’t over yet and more things are needed as progression into new areas are ventured.
I mentioned that you will become attached to the first watch that you cursed, sweat over, felt inadequate about, asked many questions as to how, felt like throwing it out the window etc.. when it starts to tick…. baby, that’s your first 😆 Then you start to show it off and carry it… oh boy. Once you start hearing “Here Comes The Bride” playing in your noggin, it’s game overOctober 30, 2014 at 4:28 am #60080
@Chris Mabbott wrote:
I also noticed two – what seem to be – two gold posts pointing straight down off the edge of the balance cock ****All that glitters is not gold These are called regulating pins, they are attached to the regulator. They allow the HS to be shortened or lengthened without moving the pinned anchor point, thus effecting rate.Oil Cup: not sure what the question is I don’t use an oil cup, I drink straight from the bottles. I only use two types of oil, both synthetic, which requires me to dip my spotlessly clean oiler into each only a couple of times. This is my personal choice/method. Again, like the bow, you have to look at the origins. Cups were originally used when there were many watch repairers/makers in line, during the times when this was a world wide industry employing millions. Oil was expensive, so drops of oil were allocated to each repairer for cost effectiveness, to organize the many different oils, AND more importantly, as a means to prevent over oiling.
Chris, thank you for taking the time to tell me the history – a hella good explanation about how precious oil was to those managers in the olden days! I am sorry to have been so ambiguous in my approach – because I was actually not going for that bit of information – but I gotta tell you – I enjoyed the hell out of it…
The “oil cups” I was referring to were the ones you spoke about here:
@Chris Mabbott wrote:
you’re referring to the “Oil Sinks” those little concave divets surrounding the pivots…
So, yeah Chris, I was more trying to “find” these “oil cups” at the base of the cannon pinion, as shown in the video – and also the little concave divots you mentioned – and now I’m pretty sure it’s more of what you said, and that is, they may be there, they may not be there. It’s all in pieces right this minute, so I can’t give you any kind of serious photo, but I’ll remember that in the future. Your (and Randy’s) good counsel on oiling the cap jewels (which, in turn, oil the hole jewel in that “divot”, is probably most, if not all I need to know regarding that area, I think. So, I’m wondering now if those “oil cups” Bob spoke of are the divots, are the oil cups, are the oil sinks…most probably all the same thing – I think it’s starting to come together!
Let’s see just how good my lyrical memory is – Ahhh…The Spinners sang it this way: One of a kind…Love affair is… – and we just blossom from that point on!
You really brought home some good points, Chris. I mean, I know this is my first watch and all, but I never EVER thought it would be this deep, this engaging, this challenging, this rewarding a thing. I’m like eating – devouring – every single minute of it. It’s all I think about anymore, which gives me some breathing room from the guys at work who seem to sap the energy right out of you.
All of a sudden (over the last three months), I’ve failed a national certification test to regain my national NREMT paramedic license (I’m still state certified,) taken up a renewed interest in learning about clocks, jumping in with one foot (the course), then the other (the tools/watches/books), discovered that my brother and I are basically raving maniacs of horology, met a great bunch of guys, learned more than most people will ever know in a lifetime about watches and clocks, CHANGED my focus from clocks – my initial interest – to pocket watches (my substitute for a crack cocaine addiction), dismantled my first watch and cleaned it, marveled at how beautiful the parts look now that they’re clean and shiny, and now I’m preparing the way ahead so I can get this baby running!!! So, YEAH, I am TOTALLY starting to see what you meant when you started talking about your “first baby…”
This one is MINE – and not from a selfish perspective – oh no, it’s much worse (much worse an addiction; therefore a very, very good thing in this context!!!) than that, which means it’s better for me! My watch and I have embarked on a journey together, and from time to time, we’ve held the other’s hand, as well as asked for love and support along the way. I have a “buddy” watch that I keep close by and within earshot – because the ticking soothes me…
I gotta admit, Chris, I hadn’t quite thought of my first watch as my baby, but that’s all changed now. This ONE WATCH continues to whisper into my ear the hundreds of years old secrets of watch movements. There are, as I said, challenges and learning opportunities (read: frustrations,) but that’s all part and parcel to the process. This will not be my best watch, I’m guessing. Months from now, after learning more as I move past this first challenge, I may even want to break into it again – and do it the RIGHT way. The Randy way; the Bernie way; the Chris way; the William way; the Joe way; the Bob way. THE TIM WAY!!!!
That’s right, I’m apprenticing, to be sure. Only I’m doing so under some MASTERS of the art form, and I am so very appreciative and pleased to have been able to do so. 20 years ago, I was learning leather crafting from ONE master – with ONE way of doing things – and I STILL formulated my own approach, eventually.
But this – THIS is so much better on so many levels! Sharing information; sharing information quickly in today’s internet-capable way; learning from MASTERS – and, that is so very valuable an offering to anyone who happens upon this uniquely suited group of guys…Apprenticeship, INDEED!!!
And, sharing. I know I don’t have a lot to offer you guys, but I know you were sitting right where I am – at the beginning. I find that William is the most recent inspiration, as you pointed out – but with your spic-an-span approach, Bob’s thoroughness, Bernie’s creative approaches to watchmaking, my brother Joe’s unrequited sharing “give all your knowledge away” style, and Randy’s down-to-earth way of doing things – and advice, eventually I will be another source here in the forum whom the new folks can learn from. Right this minute, I’m really a consumer. One who takes, takes, takes, and gives back only what he has now – and that is mostly humor and “thinking out loud” – for the time being
My BABY; My APPRENTICESHIP; And SHARING; And DOING…
Thank you all very, very much.
TimOctober 31, 2014 at 8:45 am #60081
I don’t know about “masters” but I think I speak for most people in this hobby/business, as in, if we didn’t at least enjoy it, have some form of passion, and be handy with our hands/imaginations, that we wouldn’t endure those moments when it isn’t such great fun 🙄
The old timers used to say “to each their own” which basically means, if you don’t have the knack or talent for something, then eventually you’ll drop it and move on. That’s why were not all doctors, soldiers, or bus drivers, i guess.
The only time I was ever a master at something was when I tried fishing for the first time, I went down to the raging white water fury that was our rocky mountain river. before they let me hook up and cast, out of fear that I drive the barb into mine, or someone else ear, I had the duty to learn baiting the hook. well, after a few times at this I became proficient and won the title of Master Baiter, only then could I move on to the next phase of Master Caster 😆
For me, I like to know how techniques developed, and why. I’m not one to simply do something because it’s tradition, the old ways formed for a reason, most often, NOT for the reasons that we like to think. Like the bow, which was used before electricity, so it was, apart from the horse and fluid motion, the only means to power a lathe. But I also don’t use 1000 candles nor a coal fire to cook cause I love electricity
So knowing how and why are a good lessons to move forward and develop ones own ways.
When I trace the history of watches, it amazes me how I forget that NO, there weren’t any taxis in 1902, hadn’t been invented yet. Nor was there mass electricity in every home and office, there weren’t even department stores yet.. So it places everything in perspective, and we can remember the entire civilization of the world that is gone, but who left us with our babies that we now cherish..
Have you got that jewel in yet Tim? :October 31, 2014 at 8:34 pm #60082
I work in 24 hour shifts when I do watchmaking, because I work in 24 hour shifts at the fire house It’s every other day, mostly, so I’ll be taking another whack at that jewel tomorrow…and I have renewed resolve, perspective, and energy! :ugeek:
Chris, when I first listed the tools I thought I needed, I really appreciated your “boxwood dust” comment – which really showed me a lot about your approach to…well, to life – not just watchmaking…
So, when you started talking about synthetic grease and the “other” things you do “differently,” I had a real appreciation because, I, too like to do things “on the cutting edge of technology and the craft” – and in my own way, because I like to have my OWN way of doing things and my OWN approach to watchmaking, because that’s what makes us so great – our individuality. So, while I am very heavy-handed and heavy-hearted when it comes to tradition, I also want to do whatever the best thing is to do at that moment – not just “because.” It’s a very cool way to be! And, I like to think of myself as very smooth, very cool :ugeek:
It really is an ala carte kind of thing, being on this board. While I certainly respect everyone’s opinion, and their individual approach, how do I put this…”Ya gotta choose one.” I believe I’ve taken, thus far, at least one – if not several of the techniques and preferences FROM EVERYONE – and that’s kind of special to me. That means that, however I end up getting this first watch done, there will be a little bit of each one of you, and a whole lot of me that goes into the final product. My “baby,” Chris? How about, “my baby with fingers and toes named Chris, Bernie, Joe, William, Bob, Randy,” you get the point!
Everyone here is SO STUCK (in a good way) on their own way of doing things (mostly) – yet SO OPEN AND ACCEPTING of others’ viewpoint – and the right to choose their own techniques and approaches. Let the bumps, bruises, and aches and pains of INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCE round out a person’s ultimate and final, unique and individual watchmaking approach. We have that because of this forum.
And that round of applause really goes to Bob, because without this forum, we’d all be somewhere else and in different places – and that might not be so great! I’m kind of convinced that this particular forum, and this particular group of guys – who really give a whole lot to ANYONE who’s serious about watchmaking – is somewhat of preordained thing. Not to get all religious about it…you could call it the crossroads of watchmaker paradise, or a happy accident, or a very well planned, other-worldly directed endeavor, but whatever you call it, there’s one thing I don’t think anyone can deny, and that is how special and meaningful this site really is to a lot of folks.
To me, as I’ve alluded to in the past, it’s like apprenticing under a dozen great watchmakers all at once. When I first became a firefighter, they would always tell me that, “when you become a captain, you’ll be just like your first captain…” – and they were right. Some of the ideals I’ve kept, some not, but I only had that one guy to teach me by example how he liked to do the job of managing three firefighters. Here, it’s like I’ve got a dozen captains – and if it’s true, as in my firefighting experience, then I ask: What kind of watchmaker will I be when I “arrive”? If I were a bettin’ man, I’d say a pretty damned good one. How’s that make you feel, guys? Because it’s all true – and I have the absolute pleasure of learning the best practices that you’ve freely given to anyone looking for answers.
See what I did there, Chris?
P.S. Thanks for the push! I’ve had several new ideas on how to get that jewel in the proper place, and installed correctly. I’ll keep you updated
TimNovember 1, 2014 at 4:39 am #60083
Chris, when I first listed the tools I thought I needed, I really appreciated your “boxwood dust” comment – which really showed me a lot about your approach to…well, to life – not just watchmaking…
Fear the boxwood is my approach to life 😆
In my former incarnation I was also part of a fire/ rescue team, so on call 24/7, so my best hours are from 8 pm until 6 am, I suppose, like you, stemming from long hours, that ran into years, of being on call, as well as performing regular work duties. Bad thing was it definitely cut down on social time, or was that a good thing : because you learn other things rather than going out and getting hammed with your buddies 🙄
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