Pallet Action

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  • #48441
    watchthebear
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 21
    • Total Posts: 77

    Hello folks, hope you are and will have a fine holiday. I am fixing to return to Unfinished post below, but I have a question. I take a watch that I know is running well. I remove the balance. I gently power it manually and it runs right down to , and including, the moving of the pallet fork. Is this supposed to happen? I have been refining my observations of the pallet, and adjusting a few watches accordingly. Everything seems right, but a gentle manual “push” will not move the pallet fork. Now, the only thing that I “think” is left is the checking (and adjusting??) of the banking pins. I don’t understand this part, so I don’t know if I am right. I’ll just stop beating my head against the wall ’til I get some feedback from you folks who know much more than I. Any and all help will be appreciated. Thanks in advance……….take care………….stay well…………….b

    #52518
    willofiam
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 75
    • Total Posts: 1437

    hey B, wind the watch with the balance out a turn or so, slowly nudge the pallet fork from one banking pin towards the other, it should at some point snap over to the other banking pin that you are nudging towards, this would show impulse from one pallet to the lock onto the other. try that first and let us know what happens, William

    #52519
    watchthebear
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 21
    • Total Posts: 77

    Good morning all, and I hope you are enjoying the holidays (Now: from Thanksgiving to the Super Bowl………Why not the Master’s?). Thanks William for the input. I’m working w/ a pool of about 20 watches, that were screened from a pool of 80 using the load of good advice i got in the thread about 4 down. So: yes I have about 5 that do what you describe. But when the reach the other banking pin the situation is repeated. The fork is locked and if i slowly nudge it, it eventually heads for the other banking pin. I guess it is something like a snap–it appears a force takes over. On most of these patients I have found several interesting things. I shall give you one: if i take a sharp toothpick and go to the center wheel and gently try to turn it , the fork pallet will lock up. If i very gently and slowly start rocking the center wheel back and forth (all the time trying to “feel the escapement”), I will get a “lock and release” going. That is, w/ each movement (or w/ every 2, I am not quite sure, as I can’t take in that much) the fork will lock, then leave one side and go to the other, and then back to the first one. back and forth. If I get the rhythm right I can make it look like it is running. I have eliminated everything I can think of, or know of. After the advice from the other post I tried many things on the whole pool. Found, for instance, that almost 10 of the pallets had jewels that could be easily moved back and forth w/in the slot. They were kicked out. I found 8 watches that had the shaft of the 4th wheel worn so far through the plate that I could have pricked my finger to test my blood. Found 2 escape wheels that had the same problem. I found 3 escape wheels that had at least 1 broken tooth. And on it went. Now I have this batch that are left, and no idea what to do. I spent about an hour looking up books and phamplets on “the Escapement” yesterday. Then I thought” “they are all going to say the same thing, I need to get insight from the people on this forum who are actually working w/ the movements”. thanks William. I will await more ideas . All suggestions appreciated, and I will try them all if I can understand how to do them………..take care…………..b

    #52520
    willofiam
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 75
    • Total Posts: 1437

    Hey B, lets just look at the one here, work thru this and not worry about anything else, ;) O.K.??? when you said @watchthebear wrote:

    The fork is locked and if i slowly nudge it, it eventually heads for the other banking pin. I guess it is something like a snap–it appears a force takes over

    This is what is supposed to happen, with the force from the mainspring thru the train to the escape wheel, the pallets should lock the escape wheel tooth and you have to nudge back the other way to get it to snap back to the other banking pin and move to the next escape wheel tooth. Is this what is happening with this one watch we are talking about today????? William

    #52521
    watchthebear
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 21
    • Total Posts: 77

    Hello all………..Hi William, yes, this is what is happening. I have to get the pallet fork moving and keep it moving. In my example (The particular watch we are talking about), the power from the spring, or my manual operation, does not move the fork, it stays locked. if I give it a nudge, it will move to the other pin and lock. Only if i nudge it the other way does it move again. W/ the power on, it will not continue to move back and forth. None of this group I am talking about will do this. I know the roller jewel figures in here somehow, but that doesn’t explain how I can have a working watch that will move the fork back and forth, with the balance out, on it’s own. Is this an aberration? I am totally confused. I think you, and probably others, have the answer. I will wait for further comments, or advice. Thanks for all the help……..take care……………b

    #52522
    c.kelly
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 164

    I’m with William here. Without the balance in the pallet should lock in position. It locks waiting for balance to swing back and give it a nudge with roller jewel. If I understand your original post you have mainspring and balance out and are moving the train manually? Is it possible when you are moving train that you could be moving it backwards? This might allow everything to seem to move if in the wrong direction. It the pallet really isn’t locking then the mainspring would just run down very fast as there couldn’t be any way to regulate watch. I have seen this happen before with watch that had pallet jewel loose. If you imagime a watch under power with no balance the pallet should be stopped. Now it you should nudge pallet toward opposite banking pin the escapement would move forward a click and pallet stops again. Each time pallet is moved escapement wheel would step forward but stop as soon as pallet hits opposite pin. I may have explained poorly but I hope I’m not confusing the issue.
    Charles

    #52523
    watchthebear
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 21
    • Total Posts: 77

    Hello all, Thanks Charles for your comments and advice. Yes, I have found that out about moving the train backwards. I am not doing that. It appears that what I am seeing is what is supposed to happen. Now the only logical test, if I have you and William right, is to install a good balance assembly and see how it goes. I believe you both are right because that is the conclusion I came through from reading. I find most of the experts who have written books to be somewhat poor writers. I understand there is a difference between American and British English, especially in the past; but I had a large hunk of my younger years–10–devoted to academic study and research. Most of the important material was written by British writers or translators. It gets easy to see when writers are leaving the main road and are going off on some private language of their own. Horologists ae no exception. Well, I have my work cut out for me: finding balances that I can install, and move on w/ this phase of learning. Any more comments or advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks! take care all…………..b

    #52524
    c.kelly
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 164

    You ae right about what you say about reading the books. While they are fine and well nothing beats seeing the operation done, that’s why I learned so much from these videos. In fact I have found a guy offering to sell cuckoo clock repair videos and I am seriously thinking about that. Never have worked on a clock before but my wife does want a cuckoo clock. Think this guys business is called cuckoo clock hospital. You say you have a watch that runs. I would suggest practice on that. That way you can takes bits off then replace them and if watch still runs then you know you are on right track. May seem silly but I like seeing the parts moving and ticking. I have been working on a small ladies Waltham which was running but just quit. I can take mainspring barrel out and gently move train and balance beats right up but won’t power with spring. Currently I am going nuts trying to figure out issue, but that’s the fun of it.

    Charles K

    #52525
    david pierce
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 90
    • Total Posts: 1360

    Bear,
    The escape wheel is essentially a cam even though most people think of it as a 15 tooth gear. Each pallet jewel must perform two different functions. The angled ends of the pallet jewels are cam followers and their job is to transmit motion from the cam face of the escape wheel to the pallet arm. The angle of the jewel faces determine the amount of force and the distance of movement for the cam action. If you position the mechanism with the escape wheel and the pallet jewels facing you, the OUTSIDE surface of the left pallet jewel acts as a pawl in a ratchet mechanism. On the right hand pallet jewel it is the INSIDE face that acts as a pawl. The depth of the pawls (the lock) is determined by the position of the banking pins. When the balance wheel spins around and knocks the pallet arm, it unlocks the pawl (pallet jewel) allowing the cam action to take place on the angled end of the jewel and push the pallet arm. This transmits force through the pallet arm to the roller which throws the balance arm around and winds up the hairspring. When the lever arm hits the banking pin it sits and waits until the hairspring spins the balance mechanism in the other direction and the process repeats.
    david

    #52526
    willofiam
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 75
    • Total Posts: 1437

    Hey B, yes, everyone who posted here is right, AND it sounds like the watch we are talking about is right also, I did want to focus on one thing at a time here while we figure this out. I think you said the watch we are talking about was running. Now that we have determined that the escape wheel has power, the pallet snaps back and forth and actually locks the pallet jewel onto a escape wheel tooth (this is called the “lock” area) technically, 1/3 the width of the pallet jewel is where the lock should be, BUT lets not concern ourselves with the tech. stuff just yet…..and focus on the mechanics…… all this so far is what is supposed to happen, B, the pallet under power will not move back and forth by it’s self, and really at anytime should it, it needs something else to help it.(kind of like me and Bobs foot:) )….. like a pendulum on a clock, that swings back and forth, this is what helps the verge and pallets to move. from one tooth to the next…. take a close look in Donald DeCarles book on practical watch repairing Pages 35 and 36 or chapter 5, (should be several drawings of the lever escapement) I think you have this book, if not let me know…. ;) and please let me know what helps move the pallet back and forth in a watch, have a fantastic day :D , William

    #52527
    watchthebear
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 21
    • Total Posts: 77

    Hello all, Thanks for all the input. William, you have summed it up well. I have studied those drawings in de Carle’s book ’til I have felt ill–some evenings. Clearly, in answer to your quiz (??) , it takes the movement of the balance jewel to “trigger” the pallet fork to move to the other banking pin. This enables the entrance stone to take a new tooth. The watch I have been referring to does not run because I took out the barrel to have more room to cogitate. I have been using the toothpick. I could put the barrel back in and it would be powered that way. Like so many things, we dig ourselves out of a hole only to fall into a deeper one. I have tried and tried, and so on, and I have not been able to install the ballance assembly in such a way as to get the jewel inside the pallet fork. Have watched Bob’s video–that’s like watching Tiger Woods hit a golf ball. It happens faster than the mind can follow. This is a bit of an overstatement but I would like to see a video of some erstwhile watch repairer struggle for 15-20 minutes trying to get it right. So William, and all others, please give me a shove here, or tell me I am on the wrong track again. A decent beating won’t bother me; being radically right-brained, it usually takes force for me to learn anything that requires linear thinking. Thanks again for all the help you folks have given. I’m up for anything else that comes this way………………..take care……………………b

    #52528
    willofiam
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 75
    • Total Posts: 1437

    Hey B, yes as you said, @watchthebear wrote:

    in answer to your quiz (??)

    I am busted 😳 I hope you do not take offense, without knowing you or talking in person I have to find out if your understanding things I am trying to lead up to. as you have said about yourself, @watchthebear wrote:

    A decent beating won’t bother me; being radically right-brained, it usually takes force for me to learn anything that requires linear thinking.

    BUT me all the more!!!!!!
    Most times when I am struggling to figure something out, I usually miss the obvious, that is where I like to start with myself and also with others ;)
    not sure what this word means, @watchthebear wrote:

    have more room to cogitate

    please explain
    The trick I think in this situation or any other like you have said @watchthebear wrote:

    we dig ourselves out of a hole only to fall into a deeper one

    Is to let go of the shovel and leave the ground undisturbed until we KNOW we need to start digging again ;) a cornstock 7 feet tall does not require the seed to be planted 7 feet into the soil, but only 1-2 inches under the surface!!! and NO need to cogitate
    As you have also said, @watchthebear wrote:

    that’s like watching Tiger Woods hit a golf ball

    you only have to remember that Tiger Woods, (who by the way puts his pants on the same way you and I do) has spent many hours of practice to get where he is and frankly if ANYONE spent the time he has could very likely be as competitive as he.
    @watchthebear wrote:

    I have tried and tried, and so on, and I have not been able to install the ballance assembly in such a way as to get the jewel inside the pallet fork

    Keep on keepin on and you WILL get it, William

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