my pivot problem

[bobpat]

Back to the Illinois 16s with suspected bent pivot. I ordered new jewels , put them in, the lower was kinda sloppy, the upper was fine. I could not get that lower pivot in the jewel. I was almost like the jewel was too small. I put the old jewel back in and the pivot went right in. Got the jewels at Cas Kers, just gave him the serial numbers. I believe the upper and lower jewels are different. I am not even sure this is the original balance wheel. Looking at it magnified, I see writing on the balance wheel. Vibrate numbers?? Anyways, the pivot is broke, good thing this is a practice piece, Will learn jewel replacement, re staffing all on the same watch. When I bought the watch, guy said the upper balance staff was broke, I couldn’t see where. I do know that the jewels didn’t match the pivots. I measured after and I got .140mm on the pivot, yup one pivot, the other one IS broke now,, great practice huh ? I thought replacing jewels was going to be hard, It’s a piece of cake compared to finding the right parts for these watches. I am slowly getting all the tools, just can’t find the parts to use them on..Any thoughts?. I think the old balance is junk, should I get a used one and hope its good and measure for the jewels?. Should I take up knitting?. Already took up drinking, that didn’t help much. 🙄

[willofiam]

Hey bobpat, Wondering why you bought new jewels when your other post was about the balance staff? I am getting old and forgetful, 🙄 maybe you had mentioned something about them……Why would you say the balance is junk, can you restaff it?

For practice I had bought off ebay a pile of pocket watch parts for a small price, had alot of balance wheels with broken staffs, they were perfect for practicing removing the staff and going thru the motions of resetting them even though the rivet area was gone. will even help in turning staffs to match. I suppose you could also contact a nearby watchmaker and see what they have laying around.

Do you have a watchmakers lathe? or a jacot tool? you can reduce the diameter of a pivot if it is too tight (touchy job though) using a burnisher can work. practicing this on old broken balance staffs is a good way to get used to doing it with little to no cost or worry. I think Paul may have a technique that only requires hand tools (cant remember, 🙄 you know)

@bobpat wrote:

the lower was kinda sloppy

what do you mean, I am guessing you mean the jewel is moving around in the setting…. that wont work very well you will have several issues if that is happening.

@bobpat wrote:

Should I take up knitting?. Already took up drinking, that didn’t help much.

knitting would be fun you should do that…..but I would quit the drinking. either one though could cause you great harm….William

[bobpat]

I noticed a crack in on of the jewels so I replaced them both, By sloppy fit I mean there wasn’t much pressure to push it in, kinda just fell in. The pivot on the staff is broke, the roller jewel fell out, I suppose it would be a great opportunity to practice on the re-staffing and jewels on this, after all ,that’s was the idea on buying some of these. I think the watch had been worked on before and parts were put in that are different from the original. that’s why the jewels didn’t fit right.This time I will measure the pivots and order the correct jewels

[willofiam]

bobpat, If I remember you have press in jewels, you should have to press them in, if this is the case then you can set the depth correctly, If I am thinking correctly today (need more coffee) you need a few different measurements for the jewel and the balance staff, have to get more opinion on your jewel being “loose”.

In the book Tmac had just posted about the size 16 Illinois shows 5 different staffs depending on the model it is. At a quick glance some models are crossed over in staff factory # but the overall lengths are the same, the difference appears to be type of case it is in and size of collet, which will determine several other measurements.

A Elgin I just refurbished the previous smith had put in the wrong jewel in setting and decided to bend the balance cock to make the staff fit. It was a learning journey for me and I found out that there were 2 different styles of settings, thin and thick shoulder along with several different sized pivot holes. Who know sometimes what hands these have passed through, usually these old pocket watches have been on top of many benches. our goal here is to get them right.

If you get a new staff you can test fit it before putting it on the balance wheel, making sure the jewels are correct in hole opening, by checking end shake and side shake. Well, I better dump some more coffee on my head and hit the road. Have a good day , William

[bobpat]

WILLofIAM . I know on this particular watch, the top and bottom jewels are different, but the pivots on the staff just did not fit, so I think it may have been changed, I should have measured the pivots than ordered but I gave cas-Ker just the serial number. they told me to return them, I may or may not, I should start to build up supplies, but $30 is $30

[chris mabbott]

Bob,

Just a couple of questions….

Are these friction jewels for 100% certain?

They are mounted in brass settings, the cap and hole jewels, individually?
How are they fastened into the plates? I’m speaking about the LOWER set.

It seems odd that the new jewels are sloppy when they are supposedly a stock item?
Could the movement have been “modded”

Also.. Can you post any photos of the broken staff, the jewels, and the plates.

This is always better because….

1. Written description can be misunderstood

2. We don’t know who has “modified” the movement in the past.

3. Without visual aids we are going on a “blind date”

Can you also provide the serial number, we can check our records to see what is what..

Think of it this way… Call any auto garage and tell them you have a noise in your engine coming from the right cylinder head, they would say bring it in they need to see

[randy]

In all of the cases I know of, the writing on the balance arm should be the serial number of the watch. I’m not saying that’s “gospel”..but it’s my experience / understanding.
If it doesn’t match,..you may have a replacement.

Chris makes a good point…pics would help us to help you ???

Best,

Randy

[bobpat]

yeah randy, I heard the same thing just after I mentioned it.

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