Jewel pushing disasters…HELP

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  • #48598
    tmac1956
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    All:

    I decided to buy an old American Waltham plate on which to practice pushing out friction fit jewels (without a setting). Of the three that I have attempted thus far, I’ve shattered them all into oblivion. I’m using the recommended stump to support the plate along with a flat faced punch slightly smaller than the jewel. I’m putting pressure on the jewel using the jewel pusher so I’m not banging on it with a hammer or anything. All of this per the directions in one of the books about K & D staking sets that I have – so much for the directions. Help!

    Thanks,
    tmac

    #53528
    david pierce
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    Tom.
    Try heating the plate up a little. A light bulb may provide enough heat to expand the metal a little bit and allow the jewel to come out a little easier. Make sure the jewels aren’t locked into their holes with gummy oil that dried out years ago. In Bob’s video he just pushes them out by hand with a hand held jewel pusher.
    david

    #53529
    tmac1956
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    @david pierce wrote:

    Tom.
    Try heating the plate up a little. A light bulb may provide enough heat to expand the metal a little bit and allow the jewel to come out a little easier. Make sure the jewels aren’t locked into their holes with gummy oil that dried out years ago. In Bob’s video he just pushes them out by hand with a hand held jewel pusher.
    david

    david:

    Yes – I tried the hand jewel pusher first but it did the same thing. However, I will try heating it up to expand the metal – as soon as I get something else to practice on that is. ;)

    Thanks!
    tmac

    #53530
    arutha
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    Tmac, are you sure they are friction fit and not rubbed in?
    Paul.

    #53531
    tmac1956
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    @Arutha wrote:

    Tmac, are you sure they are friction fit and not rubbed in?
    Paul.

    Arutha:

    Good question… At this point, I’m not sure of anything. Under magnifications, however, they appear to be pressed-in jewels. Here’s the image I posted in another thread – the jewel on the right appears to be a factory installation (please ignore the red cloud – that’s a bad jewel installation). The ones that I’ve destroyed look the same as the jewel on the right.

    If they are rubbed in, how does one get them out without damaging them? Author de Carles has a chapter on rubbing them in, but little information on their removal.

    Thanks!

    #53532
    david pierce
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    Tom,
    If the lip of the hole has been burnished in, it will have to be removed for the jewel to clear the hole when it is pressed out. This is a perfect application for a face plate on the jewelers lathe. If you do this center the jewel and pilar plate with the plunger center in the face plate. Using a center in the tailstock will work only if it is centered to the spindle of the lathe. in most watchmaker lathes of the WW design, the tailstocks are not centered well to the headstock spindles. You can accurately check the tailstock by running a dial indicator around the tailstock shaft.
    david

    #53533
    arutha
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    Tmac,
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Watchmakers-Antique-Boxed-Watch-Tool-Set-Jewel-Setting-Tool-Set-/300848846364

    This is a link to an set of jeweling tools which you need for putting in and removing rubbed in jewels. They spread the brass over the edge of the jewel to hold it in place and the other tools push the brass edge back away from the jewel to allow removal. I am having difficulty telling by looking at your picture but if you have already broken jewels trying to just push them out then it would be safe to assume they are the rubbed in type.

    David,
    I understand how to use your method for removing the jewels, you would have to be careful not to remove too much brass otherwise you would have problems getting the new jewel rubbed back in. Using the hand tools I have shown above would be a much quicker method, I can remove a jewel and rub one back in in a couple of minutes.
    Paul.

    #53534
    tmac1956
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    @Arutha wrote:

    Tmac,
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Watchmakers-Antique-Boxed-Watch-Tool-Set-Jewel-Setting-Tool-Set-/300848846364

    This is a link to an set of jeweling tools which you need for putting in and removing rubbed in jewels. They spread the brass over the edge of the jewel to hold it in place and the other tools push the brass edge back away from the jewel to allow removal. I am having difficulty telling by looking at your picture but if you have already broken jewels trying to just push them out then it would be safe to assume they are the rubbed in type.

    David,
    I understand how to use your method for removing the jewels, you would have to be careful not to remove too much brass otherwise you would have problems getting the new jewel rubbed back in. Using the hand tools I have shown above would be a much quicker method, I can remove a jewel and rub one back in in a couple of minutes.
    Paul.

    Paul:

    I actually have half of that set – spreading but not closing. I can try those and see if they work. I’ll try to pick up the remaining tools as I can.

    Thanks!
    tmac

    #53535
    randy
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    I think that in Bob’s video, he is pushing out the the gold Chaton, with the jewel intact,..not just the jewel ?

    Anyway. Good luck with this !

    Randy

    #53536
    tmac1956
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    @Arutha wrote:

    Tmac,
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Watchmakers-Antique-Boxed-Watch-Tool-Set-Jewel-Setting-Tool-Set-/300848846364

    This is a link to an set of jeweling tools which you need for putting in and removing rubbed in jewels. They spread the brass over the edge of the jewel to hold it in place and the other tools push the brass edge back away from the jewel to allow removal. I am having difficulty telling by looking at your picture but if you have already broken jewels trying to just push them out then it would be safe to assume they are the rubbed in type.

    David,
    I understand how to use your method for removing the jewels, you would have to be careful not to remove too much brass otherwise you would have problems getting the new jewel rubbed back in. Using the hand tools I have shown above would be a much quicker method, I can remove a jewel and rub one back in in a couple of minutes.
    Paul.

    Paul/David:

    The next time you do one of these, I’m sure you would have an appreciative audience if you could post a few pictures. :)

    Thanks!
    tmac

    #53537
    arutha
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    I will do that, I was thinking today as I do certain jobs I should takes some pictures and post them up. Maybe some of the other forum members could do the same too?

    #53538
    tmac1956
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    @Arutha wrote:

    I will do that, I was thinking today as I do certain jobs I should takes some pictures and post them up. Maybe some of the other forum members could do the same too?

    Paul:

    That’s a darn good idea. I know I could post some informative pictures — on how “NOT” do do something. ;)

    Regarding the jewel issue… I’ve read several things about rubbed in jewels, but that’s just not as good as a detailed discussion with other minds looking at the problem. The opening and closing tools I understand. However, what tool do you use to do the final burnishing? I saw a sketch of a rounded tool in de Carles’ book but he sort of just skimmed over that and I don’t remember ever seeing the burnisher as part of the set we are discussing.

    Thanks!
    tmac

    #53539
    arutha
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    the tools you see in the picture comprise of a set of six, 3 of each. The openers have a flat end and the closers a slighty concave end. They are put into the setting so that the jaws are just touching the bras rim around the jewel and then you start twisting them and every now and again open them up a little more to help push the brass back away from the jewel. The closers work in the opposite way. You are right Tmac, pictures would help!
    Paul.

    #53540
    tmac1956
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    @Arutha wrote:

    the tools you see in the picture comprise of a set of six, 3 of each. The openers have a flat end and the closers a slighty concave end. They are put into the setting so that the jaws are just touching the bras rim around the jewel and then you start twisting them and every now and again open them up a little more to help push the brass back away from the jewel. The closers work in the opposite way. You are right Tmac, pictures would help!
    Paul.

    Paul:

    I tried out the jewel opener tools that I have on these jewels and it worked very well. Noe all I need is burnisher tools and I’m good to go. Thanks for the advise. Of course if I was really good with turning on a lathe I could do as david suggested.

    Later,
    tmac

    #53541
    david pierce
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    Tom.
    I did not see the jewel hole burnishing tools listed on the equipent list you posted in February. I did see the Levin lathe and thought that that was the tool that was available to you. You can certainly burnish a hole in a lathe by rotating the part as I mentioned and putting a small piece of drill rod in a pin vice. The only difference is the part is turning while the tool is stationary. If the special jewel hole burnishing tools are still made I am not aware of a source. They occasionally come up for sale on Ebay but in general are difficult to find.
    david

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tmac1956Jewel pushing disasters…HELP