Jewel issue for pocket watch

[willofiam]

hey tmac1956, what do you think the previous smith was trying to accomplish? hold the jewel or the setting, or did he put in a different setting with jewel and try to hold it in place? William

[tmac1956]

@willofiam wrote:

hey tmac1956, what do you think the previous smith was trying to accomplish? hold the jewel or the setting, or did he put in a different setting with jewel and try to hold it in place? William

It looks to me as though the jewel was put in without a setting and the watchmaker simply gouged metal up and around it to hold it in place. Not exactly a rubbed in jewel, but maybe something like it… its just nasty looking. Now i’ve got to replace it. I’ll probably use the reamers in my staking set and try to clean it up. My plan is to increase reamer sizes incrementally in order not to lose the center until I can pop in an oversized jewel and setting. I might have to buy the jewels seperately and the brass settings in order to custom fit the thing. I’ve just about rebuilt this one from sratch. I’ts been a real learning experience for me.

Am I on the correct path here?

Thanks!
tmac

[willofiam]

hey tmac1956. I hear you when you say your having a learning experience, the first 3 pocket watches I have done have needed just about everything, keep your chin up because when your done and it is finally running how great a feeling and you will have stories to tell!!! It is a great learning experience and I wait patiently for one that just needs a cleaning…. remember that once you remove material its pretty hard to put it back on, I hope someone with more knowledge than I can chime in here but my thought is to try and “push” or “rub” open the part of the setting that holds the jewel, that is the concept of rubbing them in and out, there is a certain tool you can use but you can also make something that will work, but I am wondering if there is anything wrong with the jewel itself, if not then possibly you can clean up the area surrounding it, check the end-shake first to see if it is set in right because in the pics it looks at a different depth than the jewel next to it, just a thought. you may be able to find a parts movement and use a part from it, still might have a issue with it not fitting properly in the plate but you may be able to do something nicer than what has already happened, have fun< William

[tmac1956]

@willofiam wrote:

hey tmac1956. I hear you when you say your having a learning experience, the first 3 pocket watches I have done have needed just about everything, keep your chin up because when your done and it is finally running how great a feeling and you will have stories to tell!!! It is a great learning experience and I wait patiently for one that just needs a cleaning…. remember that once you remove material its pretty hard to put it back on, I hope someone with more knowledge than I can chime in here but my thought is to try and “push” or “rub” open the part of the setting that holds the jewel, that is the concept of rubbing them in and out, there is a certain tool you can use but you can also make something that will work, but I am wondering if there is anything wrong with the jewel itself, if not then possibly you can clean up the area surrounding it, check the end-shake first to see if it is set in right because in the pics it looks at a different depth than the jewel next to it, just a thought. you may be able to find a parts movement and use a part from it, still might have a issue with it not fitting properly in the plate but you may be able to do something nicer than what has already happened, have fun< William

Wiliam:

Aside from the standard mainspring replacement, I’m going to have to replace the roller table, balance arbor, top and bottom cap/hole balance jewel pairs, and click spring. If I had the guts, I’d probably elect to replace the hairspring as well. My AmScope will be here tomorrow, so I might just jump out and do that as well. Outside of the jewel in the picture, I don’t know of anything else wrong with the piece.

I’ve went back and reviewed de Carle’s chapter on rubbing in jewels and I think I have everthing I need except the burnishing tool. He also has a chapter on reaming one out as well which is where I got the idea above. However, if I had a good drill press, I would feel better first finding two jewels a little larger in diameter than the existing ones, drilling them out bigger, and replacing the jewels using the jewel micrometer on my 18R staking anvil to get them at the same depth as the good jewel. Whatever I do I’m likely to mess it up anyway. Oh well, I got it cheap for this purpose so…

Thanks for the information!
tmac

[derekas]

The problem I have is getting the correct settings for the anchor pallet jewels. Has anyone got a base setting I could try. Unfortunately the jewels are not a tight enough fit to play with without shellac on them first. It is driving me potty as every setting adjustment is a long process. I have read that the angle should be 2deg. but how to I measure that?

[tmac1956]

@derekas wrote:

The problem I have is getting the correct settings for the anchor pallet jewels. Has anyone got a base setting I could try. Unfortunately the jewels are not a tight enough fit to play with without shellac on them first. It is driving me potty as every setting adjustment is a long process. I have read that the angle should be 2deg. but how to I measure that?

derekas:

I’m about to face this today myself. If the hole is just slightly larger than the jewel, you can use your staking set tools.

I have to ream out the hole to clean it up a little, so I already know that the jewel will probably be loose. If you can use another jewel as a depth reference, use the micrometer on your jewel pusher or staking set to measure the final depth so that you can set the jewel back to its original depth (which may not have been correct anyway, so don’t sweat this part). If not, then you’ll just have to guess at this until you can check for end shake.

Next, I plan to use a round face hole closing punch to fix the problem. (My K & D set has punches # 112, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119 & 119A available for this, but you may have a different set.) Here are the directions from the text “The Watchmaker’s Staking Tool” by Lucchina & Perkins, page 91.

“Occasionally a hole is very slightly too large for a jewel. In this case, the hole can be closed a small amount which usually corrects the problem. …The plate, bridge, or cock is supported on a solid stump. A round face solid punch which has a diameter that is approximately two times the diameter of the hole is used to close the corner of the hole. The lever of the jeweling attachment is used on the end of the punch to apply enough pressure on the punch to close the end of the hole.
CAUTION: This operation can easily be overdone as this process is very effective.”

Now… if the hole is larger than “very slightly too large…” (whatever that means) then as you said, you’ll need a jewel setting. I don’t have any of those to send you but I did see a selection on eBay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-Pocket-Wrist-Watch-FINISHED-JEWEL-SETTINGS-NOS-No-lathe-required-/290901851557?pt=Pocket_Watches&hash=item43bb19fda5

Another set…

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-Pocket-Wrist-Watch-FINISHED-JEWEL-SETTINGS-NOS-/290901851519?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43bb19fd7f

According to de Carle in “Practical Watch Repairing” (pg.255), these settings come graduated just like jewels in increments (I.D and O.D.) of 0.01mm.

After all of that, I’ve never done this before so I expect to mess things up anyway. Heck… I’m still trying to decide which way the jewel goes in.

I’m sure there are others here with better advice.

I hope this helps!
tmac

[derekas]

@Arutha wrote:

Hi Will,
Rather than trying to make something fit which can cause more problems than it solves, try and find the correct jewel, it might take a while but the watch aint going anywhere i think diamond powder is the only thing that will cut the jewel, that has to be imbedded into something the right size to cut the hole bigger. It can be done but not to easy to get a good result. You could turn down the pivot but then they were made that size for a reason. If you can find a way to get me some dimensions i might be able to find one for you
Paul.

The problem I have in the UK is to find supplier of jewels.I have purchased jewels from ebay but they are either too big or too small. Also I don,t understand how to rub in a jewel,does this allow for me to make a jewel that is to big into a correct fitting jewel.

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