Hermle 451-053 Retrofit

[acolar]

Hello All,
I am a new member here on the forum. Lots of great info and videos. My dad was the clock repair person when he was alive. I have a number of clocks he built for the kids and grand kids to try and maintain and have finally decided to jump in head first. He built a number of small wood cases maybe grandmother clocks with Hermle 451-053 movements and Ridgeway moon dial. They are powered by a single AA battery and have the time train mainspring barrel removed. A couple of em have stopped working and I tried disassembling the electric motor assembly but cannot make them run again. I took a shot at a replacement movement with an ebay purchase of a Hermle 350-060 at a good price and it has arrived. The Ridgway moon dial seems to fit the new S. La Rose 350-060 movement. The moon dial gear drive does not engage anything on the new movement – but it doesn’t seem to interfere with anything either. I was most worried about the main spring winding arbor and hour/min hand spacings for the moon dial penetration and didn’t even think about the moon dial mounting feet and the movt front plate. Got real lucky I guess cause it seems to if it well. I will have to use a different chime rod setup to accommodate the new movement but thats part of the fun in doing this – I think. I have posted some images and have a couple of newbie type questions for the membership please.
1.) The original movt has the bottom two plate spacers that are drilled/tapped to accept mounting screws. Do you suspect these were custom made or are they available commercially as i need two for the new movement. I guess I can check to see if they interchange (old/new movt) while keeping the same plate spacing.
2.) The hands that came with the eBay movt do not seem to fit the hour tube or minute arbor very well at all. The hour tube is about 4.49mm diameter and the minute arbor about 2.1mm square. Where is my best source of Hermle movt hands – dad had a couple boxes full but my luck none fit. Thanks to all in advance, sorry for the post.
Thanks

• This topic was modified 2 years ago by Tamas Richard.

[acolar]

remaining images

• This reply was modified 2 years ago by Tamas Richard.

[acolar]

last images

• This reply was modified 2 years ago by Tamas Richard.

[Anonymous]

Hello Acolar,
Sounds like your Dad had a real knack and love for clocks. Such a great gift to hand down to the Kids and Grandkids!
I don’t recall ever seeing the bottom post holes drilled and tapped on a Hermle movement before. Maybe they could be ordered that way though. I’m not an expert at all on Hermle. It should be a fairly easy project for anyone with a lathe to do for you though. As for the hands you might try ClockWorks.com He has a parts drop down menu thingy on his front page that has a link to Hermle hands for the size you posted above.
I don’t know if I have been much help. Hope so.
Good luck Acolar. It’s good to hear that you are going to maintain those clocks!
Dan

[acolar]

Thanks for the reply Dan. I will order some hardware from Clockworks. Actually found a Hermle 350-060 my dad had in a box. Bottom posts were drilled and tapped. YES!
I removed the defective battery powered movement, oiled & installed the new 350-060 – it fit perfect on the seatboard and the seaboard screws worked too,
Next I was worried about the moon dial but the four posts fits onto the front plate and that was done too. (no gear drive for moon phase)
Now I have to find a chime block with 5 rods – found one of those too – now just need to create A spacer to mount the chime block to the back of the clock case and adjust the hammers.
Movement was pulled out of the box and after oiling and winding the time train mainspring the floating balance started on its own and has kept perfect time.
I don’t have the patience, skill or experience of many on this forum but if I can maintain all that Dad has built and work little projects like this I be very happy.
Thanks

• This reply was modified 2 years ago by Tamas Richard.

[acolar]

Hi All,

Trying to replace another battery movement in a Grandmother clock and this Hermle 350-060 from S.LaRose does not have threaded lower post plate spacers to accept seat board screws. I tried loosening the front plate nuts and removed the back plate nuts but could not easily separate the plates far enough to pull the two lower posts out. It was late so I stopped – don’t want to mess things up.

How much disassembly is required – floating balance removal, etc. so I can get enough plate separation to remove and install two different lower plate spacers? ( I did purchase Bobs Hermle video and will reference the disassembly section)
Thanks
Tony

[Anonymous]

Hello Tony,
Your father sure did beautiful case work!
I just read what Dan had posted and it appears he thought you were saying your plate posts were drilled and tapped at the
ends rather than the normal vertically drilled seat board holes, since he suggested the use of a lathe to drill and tap the holes.

Correct, to remove the plate posts you need to separate the plates a little bit beyond the length of the thread to work out one
post end and then the other from the movement; although chances are really good that the wheels and other parts will at least
move out of position or fall out completely. So, before pulling the plates apart it’s very important that you have first had some
hands on experience with the much less complicated time and strike movement. If you do have a good understanding of them
and have had plenty of practice setting up and synchronizing the warn and strike then you can begin studying and practicing
assembly and setup of a chime clock.

Chiming clocks are typically much more complicated than the time only and time and strike and fall into the intermediate level
category of clock repair.

If you are still beginning though then the best tool you can have is a digital camera! Take pictures of lever and locking pin positions,
cam orientation etc. I use my camera all the time and it has saved my butt more times than I can remember!

Bob and Williams excellent Hermle course covers working with the Hermle auto-correct system which stumps many clockmakers,
I was one of them, and is considered more advanced topic.

I certainly don’t want to discourage you. Just about anyone can and will do it with a bit of patience and practice. I just know how
frustrating it can be when all the bits drop out of the movement onto the table and floor. Really, I know!

Hope this helps Tony
Best, Phil

[acolar]

Hi Phil,
Thanks for the response and clarification of Dan’s comments. I was hoping I could sneak those plate posts out of the new movement and replace them with vertically drilled/threaded seat board hole plate posts. I just could not get the needed separation of the plates – so I must separate the plates and deal with all the necessary steps. However, I did purchase the Hermle video and have completed up to the disassembly section. I am very impressed with the quality & technical content of the video! Bob & William created a superb production, which gives a layperson such as me (a non-clock maker/horologist) the knowledge and confidence necessary to proceed. Heck, I even learned a few tricks to help with the Gathering Pallet & Center Cam removal. I loved the paint can opener tools as pry bars! I know my finger will appreciate the tips – as the gathering pallet rack lifting pin can suddenly create a nice round hole into a persons thumb! The iPad and iPhone have been invaluable tools in documenting the movement and components as I disassemble!

[acolar]

I was able to replace the bottom posts with threaded posts for attachment to the seat board. However during re assembly I had a difficult time getting the pivots lined up with then holes in the plates.
Once i got them all and powered up the movement it would not run, floating balance would only turn for a couple seconds. Chime and strike were fine. Separated the plates and inspected all the parts. Found a bent pivot on what looks like the escape wheel.
Any suggestions on how to straighten please? Thanks

• This reply was modified 2 years ago by Tamas Richard.

[acolar]

Having never straightened a pivot before – I proceeded with extreme caution after reading many posts on this Forum and NAWCC.
Found a small chuck, placed the bent pivot into it, and tightened up. Placed chuck in Dad’s old Unimat lathe and rotated lathe by hand to observe the out of round condition due to the bent pivot. Placed a drill bit in tailstock as a centerline reference and made very gentle and delicate adjustments to the assembly while checking after each correction. After a few adjustments, the assembly spun true.
Placed the escape wheel by itself between the plates and spun to verify repair. It spins freely. Re-assembled the entire movement and after only a couple of turns of winding the main spring the floating balance started up on its own and has kept accurate time now for about 24 hours.
After this little learning experience detour-addressing bent pivots – I am now back to the Hermle video for setting the Chime and strike trains.
As a newbie I have learned a lot thus far – especially a well-found sense of respect for all you pro’s that work on clocks: patience, knowledge, experience and attention to fine details!

• This reply was modified 2 years ago by Tamas Richard.

[drichards]

Hello Acolar
You appear to have the gentle touch it takes since that is a rather advanced procedure, Nice work!
Best, Dean

[willofiam]

Hello Acolar, sorry I missed your post, I have been extremely busy lately. Glad to see you were able to accomplish the task but I have a idea that might work if you ever have to do another. Many older clocks will have a metal hook to hold the movement to the seat board. Here I made a quick sample idea of what I am thinking. Have fun, William P.S. please try to resize your photos when posting. Thank you and have a great day.[attachment=0:29onhyqf]DSCN9492_01.JPG[/attachment:29onhyqf]

[acolar]

Thanks William, nice alternative. Downloaded resizing app from apple store.

[acolar]

Time to go from the bench to the case for the 350-060 modified movement.
Installed movt and 5 bar chime block. Sounds terrible in my opinion.
Is it someth8ng I did wrong in reassembly of the hammer activation mechanism or wrong chime block set?
Chime rod length are 14”-13”-12.25”-11.5”
https://Vimeo.com/325290381

[Author]

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