getting this mill to work

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  • #49805
    nic422
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 11
    • Total Posts: 66

    Hi guys, I have recently found this Hardinge watchmakers vertical mill attachment to fit on my peerless lathe. I am excited to have found it because it is American made and will match
    the peerless. Problem is, on the cross slide, the spindle center only goes as far low as about one inch above the lathe spindle center. My question is, is this normal, or should I look
    for a single slide for it? Anyone here know how this mill was originally meant to be used and is it possible for my goal to get the slide hooked up with an indexing attachment which would mean the cutting gears would be on the lathe itself.

    Other question is does anyone know who can make me a handle for the mill turn as the one that was there was obviously lost somewhere.

    please advise and many thanks.


    #63779
    Bob Tascione
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 1559

    Hi Nic,
    Not sure from the pics but If that’s a Hardinge compound then it probably won’t fit that lathe well for you. Your Hardinge compound has a locating bar on it that butts up against an angle on the Hardinge lathe to square it up as shown in the pics of my Hardinge Cataract lathe. <u>Note that the angle on the bar matches the angle on the bed.</u> It’s quite possible that it’s also for a larger swing lathe. You can always put a dividing plate on it as you suggest and that may work for you. Can you possibly rotate the spindle so it’s in the vertical position? I don’t have a milling attachment for my Hardinge and can’t tell too much from the pic but if you can rotate it, mount a pulley onto the back of the spindle where the draw bar slides in and attach the compound securely to the bed of your Peerless it may just work for you. A bit of creative thinking can sometimes go a long ways.
    Hope this helps Nic,
    Bob




    #63780
    Bob Tascione
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 1559

    Nic,
    I just took a look at your pics on a larger computer screen and zoomed in on them. I can see now that it’s not a Hardinge slide rest. Looks a bit like my Boley cross slide? If that’s the case then it also won’t fit your Peerless properly. The indexing plate mounted on the milling attachment may well be the way to go. If you wanted to put an indexing plate on your peerless you may need to make an extension sleeve of some type to fit over your spindle cuz in your pics it doesn’t look like your spindle extends too far out to accomodate an index plate? Could be wrong about that though. Pretty hard to determine that from the pic and I don’t have a Peerless lathe I can compare it to. If you do need to extend it out a little then you would need to use a longer draw bar too.

    Bob

    #63781
    nic422
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 11
    • Total Posts: 66

    Thanks for the pics Bob. Yes it’s a Boley for another lathe, which means I need to find a Marshall, or Hardinge cross slide for it.

    Looks like there is just no easy way to get this to work though. After examining the Hardinge, there is no apparent room for the indexing attachment on it, the spindle is too short, so I’d need to find a pulley for it, then there’s another issue with the spindle which is a bit tight. As for creating an index attachment on the Peerless, I could use the drawbar as the holder for the index plate to screw on to since the head is metal, but then I’d need to create some kind of attachment for a pin and lever on the bed or headstock (for regulation the index plate). What to do, what to do.

    #63782
    Bob Tascione
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 1559

    Hi Nic,
    You should be able to set it up to work for you without much trouble. If you do mount it to the knob it would be good if you could pick up another drawbar and dedicate that one to the indexing attachment. Not necessary of course but convienient.
    You can also make room for a locating bracket with arm and indexing pin by moving the headstock forward a little bit which will give you some lathe bed to use for mounting a simple assembly onto. Would only need to move the spindle forward a tiny bit for a thin clamp that could slip over the bed. Maybe 10mm or so. As for the index plate, yes you can do exactly what you said and mount it onto the drawbar knob or make an expanding mandrel that would slip into the drawbar hole and then expand when a nut is tightened down. We used to make these quite often when machining for work piece stops and/or supports for long pieces. I can draw up a simple design for one if you would like to go that route. Would be easy to make using your Peerless and a jewelers saw possibly. The spindle tightness should be adjustible in some similar fashion to a normal headstock spindle? Would just need to back off the nuts a tiny bit. Not sure how that spindle is set up though. Wouldn’t worry too much about the locking pin setup though. I’ve seen some setups where the center hole on the end of the bed has been drilled out and threaded to mount the arm. Not sure how hard the steel on that bed is. If worse came to worse the arm can actually be mounted on the bench! lol
    Oh, I also wanted to ask. If you still wanted to use the spindle in the horozontal position that is shown in your pics would it be possible to mount it (the spindle) onto a sub-plate which extends down further? That question isn’t too clear I know. To put it another way: Can you mount the spindle onto a plate and then mount that plate onto the vertical slide or is the spindle part of the slide that has the nut mounted to it that the lead screw feeds through? Whew I just read that question again and it’s confusing too. Let me know if it makes no sense to you.
    Bob

    #63783
    nic422
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 11
    • Total Posts: 66

    This is really great. Thanks for the encouragement Bob! I think I have figured out a way to make an adjustable index pin holder that would attach to a metal block that sits under the headstock and locks in with the headstock lock. It would be hidden and I could fashion a lever that looks like the Headstock lock lever to it that would swing and have a pin that adjusts on it similar looking to the normal index pin to adjust the index plate with. I think I could turn most of these all on the lathe, then use cuts and dies for making threads if needed. Thanks for the help and as for the question about lowering the mill on the plate using another plate attached to the main plate, I’m not sure as I can’t remove some of the screws that are already so tight, but looking in to that.

    #63784
    nic422
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 11
    • Total Posts: 66

    So, Bob, my next question would be, when looking for index plates, what hole counts are recommended and needed for American Pocket Watch gears, pinons, escape wheels, for Hamilton, South Bend, Illinois, Howard, etc.?

    #63785
    nic422
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 11
    • Total Posts: 66

    So I got the thing apart, and as it turns out, the person who took it apart last to clean it or whatever, put it back on upside down. The square nut that the adjustable height screw goes through was near the bottom of the mill base block and not the top where it was meant to be, so the block was upside down. I should have noticed that at first because you could adjust the height of the block to move up to touching the micro measuring heads near the turner and would have gone further if they weren’t there. Now that it’s back to normal, turns out you can use this for either for use as a mill or an index plate, goes to both spots perfectly. yeay.

    @Bob Tascione wrote:

    Hi Nic,
    Oh, I also wanted to ask. If you still wanted to use the spindle in the horozontal position that is shown in your pics would it be possible to mount it (the spindle) onto a sub-plate which extends down further? That question isn’t too clear I know. To put it another way: Can you mount the spindle onto a plate and then mount that plate onto the vertical slide or is the spindle part of the slide that has the nut mounted to it that the lead screw feeds through? Whew I just read that question again and it’s confusing too. Let me know if it makes no sense to you.
    Bob

    #63786
    Bob Tascione
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 1559

    Hi Nic,
    Sorry for the delay. I’ve been mobile for a couple of days now and tough trying to post with iPhone. Just that line took me forever to type on this thing! Hope to be back home late this evening and will try to get a response out to you in the morning.

    Bob

    #63787
    Bob Tascione
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 1559

    the person who took it apart last to clean it or whatever, put it back on upside down

    That’s great news! Takes care of that problem.

    Bob, my next question would be, when looking for index plates, what hole counts are recommended and needed for American Pocket Watch gears, pinons, escape wheels, for Hamilton, South Bend, Illinois, Howard, etc.?

    Good question Nic. I don’t really know the tooth count range used in American pocket watches so can’t answer that with any certainty. I’ll check around a little later today to see if I can find the common count used in American pocket watches.

    I think I can safely say though that if you can cover the following numbers you should have everthing you need for the “power train” for watches beating 18,000. The following should completely cover anything you’ll likely see come across the bench. NOTE: this applies to the power train only, does not include barrel tooth count or tooth count found in all gear count variations for motion works although I think this list should also cover much of what you’ll find in the motion works.

    Number of teeth: 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 14, 15, 50, 54, 56, 60, 70, 75, 80, 90, 96, 100

    Again this is for 18,000 bph trains but will cover most of what you’ll see in the slower and or odd beat trains too. Examples would be 13 teeth found on some escape wheels in 14,000 and 21,600 movements. Also 45, 105, 112.

    You might want to hunt around to see the different variations used in American watches but this should include all numbers needed for power trains in American watches too. Also check on the motion work count used in American watches just in case something is used that I didn’t mention here.

    Now, I just went up and looked on the bay and found the following number count used on 2 index plates that come with a lathe offered from China.
    Plate 1 : 42 56 64 78 96
    Plate 2 : 32 48 60 72 80
    You can see that these plates clearly will not provide some of the above mentioned numbers.
    Covered: 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 14, 15, 56, 60, 80, 96
    Not covered: 50, 54, 70, 75, 90 100
    (a third plate with 54, 70, 75, 90, 100 would cover all 18,000 bph power trains)
    Of course you’ll want to cover the barrel tooth count as this is often the gear that gets damaged.

    There are other plates up on the bay too with different numbers but if we find that the numbers used in American watches are covered in the plates above that may be all you’ll need.
    I’ll look through some books later today when the dust settles a bit around here. Might get lucky!

    Adios for now,
    Bob

    #63788
    nic422
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 11
    • Total Posts: 66

    wow, thanks for the numbers Bob! Where did you get that information?

    as far as the mainspring barrel, I guess I could look at one of my pocket watch barrels and count the teeth to find out how many cuts it would need.

    Nic

    #63789
    willofiam
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 75
    • Total Posts: 1437

    Hey Nic, looks like you and Bob have it all figured out….. you will have a nice setup soon, hope to see lots of pictures when you get it up and running. William

    #63790
    Bob Tascione
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 38
    • Total Posts: 1559

    You’re welcome Nic
    Jumped into an internet cafe for a few minutes.
    For your post I mostly got my info from my own notes and tables I setup for a design and program I was working on for a digital stepper motor indexer that I could run from my laptop. By first knowing the most ‘practical’ tooth counts and gear ratios that could be used in horological applications for beats up 18000 I could populate an array and use those variables to run a stepper motor. Emphasis on the word practical as there would be an infinite number of variations possible but not logical. The problem with making a digital indexer with a fixed number of divisions available really didn’t offer much advantage over normal physical indexers. I eventually came up with a stand alone design and program that could use off the shelf micro-controllers and by feeding back and manipulating a continous flow of data from a rotary encoder was able to write some code capable of forward and reverse incrementing of a large number of divisions covering anything I’ll ever need within fairly close tolerances. Way more than acceptible for horological applications. I had some big issues with cumulative error in the beginning which drove the tolerances into the mud and out of acceptable range which drove me nuts until eventually coming across some code posted online from a guy much smarter than I am that corrected it.
    When I researched the common tooth counts and ratios most used in horology I found lots of info from old books and articles and most said pretty much the same thing. Donald De Carles “Watch & Clock Encyclopedia” was one good source as well as some other books and some old articles from past ‘Bulletins and or Horological Times?’.
    I’m thinking of making that unit available so if you’re in no hurry…??

    Adios for now,
    Bob

    #63791
    nic422
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 11
    • Total Posts: 66

    The first time I read this I was in a daze :) Thanks for explaining it all though!

    But now I kind of understand. So you are saying this would work for most American Pocket watch movements (which are all movements up to 18000 bph) based on your own research with the code you wrote, the code the guy online wrote, and what you had read right :)

    How would one figure in the barrels?

    #63792
    nic422
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 11
    • Total Posts: 66

    I just counted a couple times on a etc unitas mainspring barrel and the teeth count is 101. Does that mean you need 101 cuts, or 100?

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nic422getting this mill to work