Elgin 12 size with tight winding issues

[c.kelly]

Hi All,
Been awhile since I posted anything but have been working on several projects. One was a 12 size Elgin for a friend at work that had a winding pinion with teeth that had erode away. Replaced that for him and noticed that watch had a very tight wind. Crown was very stiff. Just worked on another 12 size Elgin that was so gummed up that setting mechanism was locked up. Took watch apart and cleaned. Barrel was very gummed up. Put everything back together and works fine but it is also very tight when winding watch. Is not tight when setting watch. Would replacing barrel solve issue as I have one from earlier project with mainspring. Everything is smooth except when try to wind. A bit of a puzzle at this point as I haven’t ran into an issue like this before except on 12 size Elgins. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks

[Bob Tascione]

Hi C_Kelly,
If you haven’t already done so you may want to check under magnification if any other winding parts are also damaged by erosion.
If that checks out ok then it could be that the movement isn’t aligned in the case correctly. Do you still experience this problem with the movement out of the case? Stem misalignment is a very common problem and can usually be remedied very easily just by loosening the case screws and readjusting the movement position a bit. If that proves out ok then applying a small amount of grease like KT-22 stem lube can often help.
If you feel any grinding or catching when winding then you’ll want to remove the dial and examine the winding mech to see what’s binding.
Please let us know if this didn’t (or did) do the trick.
Bob

[c.kelly]

Movement is aligned in case well. Actually first noticed tightness while putting screw into mainspring barrel while attaching wheel. Usually when get screw gets tight mainspring will wind fairly easily. Usually how I tell when to stop. Other gears look very good. If you take off gear on mainspring barrel all become very free. Have also determined another problem. Stem sleeve needs adjusted down however upper part of sleeve seems eroded away. Can find no slots to insert sleeve wrench. Stem pushes on down but can still see no slots. I do see threads on inside of case where top of sleeve should be. Also found lots of small pieces of metal around stem under crown. Is there anyway to remove sleeve? Thought about getting small easy-out if I can find one small enough. Winding seems to be getting smoother or maybe I’m just more concerned with sleeve issue.

Thanks,
Charles K

[Bob Tascione]

Hi Charles,
Just a hunch but might check to see if the wheel is upside down. Also check that spring is in barrel correctly and that cap is all the way down in the barrel seat.
The sleeve…hmmm. I need to think a bit about that one. Easy-out might work but I think the sleeve is pretty hard so not sure if the easy-out will be able to dig in and have something to grab. Could dissolve it out too but…got to think about that this evening.
Bob

[c.kelly]

Wheel is on correctly. Has design engraved on top plus has slight angle down so if upside down teeth would not mesh. Cap is tight and flush. One thing is other one I worked on was also tight before I started as was this one. In fact first one was so tight had to use slight force to let down mainspring. Had to actually turn in reverse rather than just hold back. Had not thought about placement of spring inside barrel. This one does let down very smoothly.
This guys case is so beat up I would probably advise recasing but it has sentimental value. Spring will push stem back up slightly. So probably need to replace with tighter sleeve once I figure way to remove it. It’s almost exactly like one in video. If you push down a bit watch will wind but once you pull out to set and jush push in watch is in neutral, neither winds or sets till you push further down and engage winding. Just can’t figure out how to get sleeve to move also worried a bit about condition of threads.

[Bob Tascione]

Hi Charles,
Ok it’s definitely on right! The reason I asked is that you mentioned you had replaced the winding wheel with another. Winding shouldn’t get harder when you tighten the screw.
A few things you could check if you haven’t already would be:

Does the new wheel have a small counter bore on the underside? I believe it should be perfectly flat (no counter bore or recess) and just make contact with the shoulder on the arbor when placed over the square without putting pressure on the bottom of the seat in the bridge when tightened down.

Is the click spring set all the way down in it’s recess and sitting below the bridge surface?

When looking from an edge view Is the underside of the bridge flush with the pillar plate? Burrs or small screws sticking through the plate can sometimes keep bridges from seating flush.

As for the sleeve…I checked the hardness of one and it wasn’t as hard as I thought it would be. It does seem possible that a small easy-out could get a bite and just might work as you suggested. If it is too hard and breaks it apart then that too might be good since you’re going to replace it anyway. Another option is to dissolve it out by soaking the pendant with something like Sparex or another corrosive that would dissolve the steel sleeve while leaving the brass unharmed. If the threads are a real mess then in most cases running a tap back into the pendant will restore the threads well enough to hold and adjust the sleeve.

Please keep us posted and let us know how things turn out Charles,
Bob

[c.kelly]

Thanks for your help. Am now looking for a sleeve for case. May have to just find old donor case as I haven’t had much luck on just sleeve.
Thanks again

[Bob Tascione]

You’re welcome Marc,
Hope you can locate a sleeve for it.
Bob

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