Cleaning solutiion

[willofiam]

Danny, when it gets hung up mark the escape tooth it gets hung up on, test again and see if it is the same one, if not keep marking and testing until you come to a conclusion. If it is the same tooth or a few in the same area then several things can be happening…bent tooth, bent pivot, stretched out escape wheel and so on. If it is random then we have other things we can look at.

As for the runaway strike train it probably isn’t capturing the locking pin…watch it closely…I like to test using little power by hand so things happen slower.

Remember, bending, twisting, tweaking, hammering and throwing into the yard are all done after careful consideration 😆 . William

[disciple_dan]

William, You said, “Remember, bending, twisting, tweaking, hammering and throwing into the yard are all done after careful consideration” You probably truly meant that and you’ve probably done all those things. Well, it was some great advice and it proved to be just what I needed to so.
I did very carefully study what was happening or better, what was not happening. I had to bend the Hour warning lever and also get a little end shake on it where it clips to the inside front plate so it would drop all the way down. It was binding and not making full travel. Then I had to tweak the flag on the lifting arm so it would let the rack drop for to go into warning. So I got that all set up now. I’m so glad you guys are here to encourage guys like me. What a blessing.
Well, now I have to figure out why it won’t run. It gets hung up on both pallets at the same time and just stops dead and even stays there. lock up until I knock it loose. I think the pallets are too close together. I sanded and polished the pallets yesterday when I had it apart. It was pretty worn. It had some deep grooves worn in it.
Well, I’ll take any suggestions.
Thanks again Wiliam and the rest of you too. Danny.

[disciple_dan]

Hey Ya’ll, Well, for those interested in my project, I was able to tweak the beat of the clock to get it t run. It ran all night. However, If you tilt it in either direction, just a little, It hangs up. That is not going to work for the customer. If every time they wind it and move it just a little and it won’t run I know who they are going to call. Everything else is working great. I’m so excited. I’m making progress and learning a lot. I was telling Lew from Mile High Clock Supply how this is probably the best clock I could have gotten as my first cuckoo clock repair. It was so whacked out and I had to look at it so intently, every function, that I learned much more than I would have had it been something simple.
William, I had put a mark on the escape wheel and was looking to see if it was the same place each time. It didn’t seem to stop there every time but it did more than once. I took your advice and marked some other hang up spots and it helped. It does seem to stop at one spot more than the others. Well, I still don’t know exactly what to do but I will search for some info on escapements and see what I can learn. I’ll review Bob’s videos too. Those are great tools. The rack and snail animations really cleared things up for me. Thanks, Bob.
I’m going to tilt the clock stand to make it hang up and see what happens. I’ll tilt it in both directions and watch.
Still, If you have an Idea to try please let me know.
I hope I’m not being too long winded. It really does help me remember the things I’ve done to the clocks when I rehearse them this way. Thanks for all your help. God bless, take care, Danny

[willofiam]

@disciple_dan wrote:

“Remember, bending, twisting, tweaking, hammering and throwing into the yard are all done after careful consideration” You probably truly meant that and you’ve probably done all those things.

Well…no I have not…but it sure has crossed my mind more than once.

Looking at the back of your movement there is a tab that runs out where the anchor arbor pivot is set. That tab would be there for any adjustments that may need to be made for “lock and drop” (looks like it has been messed with a bit) If you or someone else has put a bushing in there then it is possible the center distance from the anchor arbor pivot and escape wheel pivot has changed not allowing for enough drop…meaning the free, unrestricted motion of the escape wheel, something like that…study up on escapements as you mentioned will get you way ahead of the curve, good stuff to learn…by increasing or decreasing the distance of centers of those 2 mentioned will either increase or decrease the drop…Now all this is also dependent on the condition of the escape wheel and its teeth, pivot straightness, angles of the pallets, wear, pivot holes, ect…ect…before making drastic adjustments start with the obvious and work thru the concepts of the function. William

[disciple_dan]

William. Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that you don’t have temperance. I have a little trouble with temperance.
I was a framing contractor for many years and a raging alcoholic too. I had many anger issues in that life but I have a new life in Christ now.
However, I still have some of those same anger issues. But, God is faithful, as I grow in Him day by day, He chisels away at those issues and molds me into a new man. Anyway, I’m not here to preach that’s just a little testimony of where I was and where I am.

OK, to the reason I am writing. This clock is really testing me. It has a very fine line for setting the beat. I had it on the stand last night and after a found that line it ran all night. This morning I decided to put it in its birdhouse and tune it up. Well, I just about have the cuckoo working perfectly but the clock will not run. Just a minute or so and it gets hung on a tooth.

Oh, I forgot to mention, William, after you brought up the bearings of the EW and anchor I took another look at them. I had not bushed the EW bearings but as I took a closer look, I decided the one on the pinion side did require a bushing. I repaired that but it didn’t fix the problem. It still has that fine line that when you find it, it will run. Like I say, it ran all night.
This is just beyond my scope of knowledge. I’ve read my books on escapements, I’ve watched videos, I’ve read posts on all the forums out there. I don’t know what to do. This is a customers clock that I have had for quite awhile now. He knows this is my first cuckoo and is very understand and patient. Thank God for that.
So, William, you say that I can adjust the anchor by tweaking the posts that have the pivot bearings in them. I’m attaching a picture to make sure I understand the idea. That’s a scary thought for me. I’m still not sure that is my problem.
I found a Schatz movement on ebay for 30.00 and free shipping so I bought it. I took the anchor out and compared it to the one in question and they are identical. Well, first I put my Schatz on the test stand and it ran perfectly.
Ok, I guess I’ll stop rambling and get to work on it again. Or maybe I should work on one of my clocks that maybe I can get running and maybe it will boost my enthusiasm. Like my dad would say to me and my brother when we were getting bored with fishing and then one of us would catch one. He’d say ” Your fishing with renewed vigor now”
Thanks Ya’ll, Gos bless, Danny

• This reply was modified 4 years ago by Tamas Richard.

[willofiam]

How do the escape wheel teeth look? any bent?

[disciple_dan]

William, No, the teeth all look fine. I measured the anchor from the clock I bought and the two were exactly the same.
Can we upload a video on this forum? I remembered I had a small endoscope that plugs into my phone. I looked at the video today and it looks like there’s not very much recoil at all. I was thinking it was slight but I’m not sure about those things yet. It looks like it has little or no drop on the entrance pallet. When the clock stops it gets hung on a tooth and just stops dead and stays there. I have to finish the swing by hand to get it freed up. Danny

[disciple_dan]

Hey, William. This is the best pic I could of the exit pallet hung on a tooth. It does this almost everytime.

• This reply was modified 4 years ago by Tamas Richard.

[willofiam]

Danny, if you were able to move the escape wheel away from the anchor do you think that would help?

[disciple_dan]

Hey, William. I really do appreciate your time. Well, that is what I have been trying to ask you! You see, I don’t want to just make the clock work and get it back to the customer. I want to know why it works that way. I want to know how and why clocks work like they do. I would like to be able to build a clock. I know that’s asking a lot at my age of 59 and no way at present to afford school. But still, that doesn’t keep me from learning how all these things work together. The information is out there I just have to find it and try to take it all in. And then, of course, I need practical experience.
There I go running off again.
The short answer is: I don’t know. I can’t really watch it working behind the plate and like I say, I’m not sure what it is supposed to be doing. How do I measure the drop? How can I observe the entry and exit drops to know that they are equal? I read that the drop should be as close as possible and still function. Wouldn’t that mean you would have a fine line for setting the beat, which I now have?
Bill Stoddard has a video on youtube of a Seth Thomas movement that has an observable wheel and anchor.

[willofiam]

@disciple_dan wrote:

I don’t want to just make the clock work and get it back to the customer

O.K. then….previously I mentioned drop… @willofiam wrote:

by increasing or decreasing the distance of centers of those 2 mentioned will either increase or decrease the drop…Now all this is also dependent on the condition of the escape wheel and its teeth, pivot straightness, angles of the pallets, wear, pivot holes, ect…ect…before making drastic adjustments start with the obvious and work thru the concepts of the function.

So lets start over….Drop is the free, unrestrained motion of the escape wheel as it leaves one pallet before it drops upon the locking surface of another pallet…The purpose of drop is to give freedom to the locking and unlocking of the pallet and escape wheel teeth…Drop from the entrance pallet is called inside drop and from the exit pallet, outside drop. If you are watching Bill Stoddards video….does he have enough drop? HE DOES, why… because it is not getting hung up on a escape wheel tooth. Watch the entrance and exit pallets in his video, they just clear the escape wheel teeth…now if ONE tooth is bent…crooked…too long ect…then it will hang up…These are the things I have wanted you to look at because it is cruitial in the function and the adjustment will not be worth making if any of these other things are present. @willofiam wrote:

..Now all this is also dependent on the condition of the escape wheel and its teeth, pivot straightness, angles of the pallets, wear, pivot holes, ect…ect…

So if all that checks out then you have one thing to do to increase drop so you do not get hung up on an escape wheel tooth…also note that it is rather difficult to actually measure drop…
@willofiam wrote:

if you were able to move the escape wheel away from the anchor do you think that would help?

It has NOTHING to do with setting it in beat, the adjustment for beat will be done after your escapement is set correctly…the answer is yes….changing that distance will help….in order to do that…. @willofiam wrote:

Looking at the back of your movement there is a tab that runs out where the anchor arbor pivot is set. That tab would be there for any adjustments that may need to be made for “lock and drop”

Carefully bend that tab A TINY BIT so the anchor arbor pivot MOVES AWAY from the escape wheel arbor pivot…and test…adjust as necessary….too much will not allow for enough lock and the escape wheel teeth will potentially hit the impulse faces of the pallets….and not run properly
Once again the adjustment has to be able to be made because of wear, improper bushing, straightening and topping the escape wheel and teeth in the past, ect….
@disciple_dan wrote:

I can’t really watch it working behind the plate

you will have to watch it at a angle thru the plate, I would watch it thru my inspection microscope using finger power…do not make the adjustment with the weights on….

[rgmt79]

Again, I go back to the topic of this thread “cleaning solution” and thank those that gave me some input on that. I’ve now cleaned the plates and gears (as much as I could get into my rather small ultrasonic cleaner) and I have to say that the results are amazing using this non-toxic 3 stage process http://www.horogrene.com My question now is, having removed all the lacquer, how can I keep it all from tarnishing? I appreciate that this will not effect the functionality, nevertheless I would like to keep my movement looking nice. The cleaning kit I am using says to finish off with brass polish, but I’m not sure if that’s a good idea, especially on the gears…having cleaned all the gung off, I’m reluctant to put it back on again…comments please.
Thanks Richard

[willofiam]

Hey Richard, yes it can be a process polishing and re-cleaning ect…hafta do what yah hafta do, though I am not familiar with the stuff your using.

What kind of clock movement is it?

Just to keep it calm I want to mention that I am only spelling out my thoughts and opinions about this…. I really hope others will chime in with their thoughts since I am kinda a goofball :roll:and if there are better ways or thoughts they are surely welcome….along with a big stick 😯 I would reconsider how I am thinking about it…

If it were me I would not do anything to the wheels and pinion as far as lacquering or putting polish on and to tell yah the truth unless it is a visible movement … in my eyes…there isnt any benefit to lacquering or putting polish on the plates except for the tarnishing… if you need to lacquer or polish the plates then a very careful job of it so not to get any in the pivot holes, or at the least go thru it with a smoothing broach after lacquering….then my head starts to wonder 🙄 if after putting oil in a oil sink with a transition area the goes from lacquer to no lacquer…will the oil leach under the lacquer? Just a thought I guess…

my experience and feeling is that any sliding or moving parts be left alone as I have noticed lacquer or any foreign substance will only hinder the function.

Not sure if I have been of any help on this subject for you…

This is probably going to open a can of worms…BUT…how bad will a piece of brass tarnish by the time it should be cleaned again? Have fun, William

[rgmt79]

Thanks for your thoughts William As for the movement I’m currently working on, it’s a Gustav Becker 2 weight driven Vienna regulator. I posted about this under “Introducing Myself” with some pictures. In fact you participated in that thread . I’m inclined to agree with you functionality is more important than aesthetics I guess. Having said that, the case for this particular movement has glass side panels, so the movement can be seen from each side. All this does beg the question…why did these clockmakers bother to lacquer their movements in the first place? Richard

[willofiam]

@rgmt79 wrote:

All this does beg the question…why did these clockmakers bother to lacquer their movements in the first place?

Excellent point!!! here is a interesting article on this subject
http://www.horology.com/htr-laqu.html
William

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