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  • #56219
    bernie weishapl
    Participant

      Around here Paul people want clean but not shiney. They don’t want it looking new. I would entertain polishing my clocks but probably wouldn’t do a customers. That’s just me.

      #56220
      arutha
      Participant

        I get a mixture Bernie, some do, some don’t. I always explain the for and against. I polished the movement in my own weight driven Vienna clock as when it gets serviced and has a run through the ultrasonic it will come up like it was just polished. Polishing with a buffing wheel and polish has a burnishing effect on the brass and helps it stay a bit cleaner than just hand cleaning with abrasive. I had a french clock come in the other day and the movement was very bright. I asked the owner if it had been serviced in the last few years and they said “oh yes, it was done 15 years ago”! It just shows how well it can keep a good finish if done properly. But then who ever has their clock serviced on a regular basis? I can count on 1 hand the amount of clocks I have had in for service/repair which have only needed cleaning and oiling. Most are run until they grind to a halt :(
        Paul.

        #56221
        ewinrow
        Participant

          Well all right Bernie, looking good. I don’t and never will use Zep Citrus cleaner in fear of the scent. What chemicals do they use for the citrus smell? After I soak my parts in awesome for about 1/2 to1 hour, I then place in my ultrasonic for 30 min, with Today glass cleaner, (another Dollar store item,) with a tinge of Ammonia and then hand polish with the help of never dull. Most movements that I do are for my personal, I really don’t know if I would go as far for a customer unless requested and I have had such request with the offer of more monies involved.

          I show all potential customers and family my before and after pics of my successful repairs along with all of my clocks within my own home if they need more persuasion. Many don’t know, they just want their item to run. I like all of my clocks to be extremely clean and properly oiled and running like a (CLOCK.) :) I like my clocks to run like my well tuned BMW motor. Quiet/strong/on time and 1st off the line. I listen and monitor that horse running in all of my clocks, even my coo-coo’s. :D

          Be mindful though, it’s not all in cleaning. Always check your bushings, pivots, jewels, teeth on gears etc. I hope I didn’t leave anything out and wish you all the best. ALL THE WAY…..! Ed. 8-)

          #56222
          bernie weishapl
          Participant

            Thanks Ed. I have been using the Zep cleaner now for several years including my own and have not seen any problems. I would rather use it than ammonia because ammonia has been proven to affect the brass. So I steer clear of it. Anyway I say use whatever you are happy with. Next time I clean my ultrasonic I am going to try soaking in awesome and also mix some up for the ultrasonic and give that a try. Will let ya know how it works compared to Zep.

            Was going to add Ed do you use awesome full strength or do you dilute it as they recommend?

            #56223
            david pierce
            Participant

              The citrus smell is actually made by extracting the oil from orange and lemon peels. There is a company in Florida that buys the peels by the tractor trailer load from Sunkist and other juice producers. The extracted oil sells for about $20.00 a pint and is purchased in tank truck loads (@9000 gallons) by companies like ZEP. It can be used as a cleaner by itself but it is so expensive it is used as a component in other cleaners and soaps.
              david

              #56224
              ewinrow
              Participant

                Hey Bernie, I dilute it, I never use straight ammonia or anything else without diluteing it for a 1st time use. I also thought the same thing. I use it some because I thought it gave the brass a little more shine. Most of the products I use are mostly for de-greasing. That seems to be a biggie with me. I use to use Zep a long time ago when I was working with automobile engines. Non scented and it really worked. But now days I don’t have much faith in it. In the same aspect, I would not use awesome for engine parts. Don’t think it’s strong enough. But mild enough for what we do. Does Zep leave any kind of residue/film or discoloration afterwards? I’ve just never used any scented products. Well got to go and get some sleep for now. Will be talking at cha later. fair well to all.

                #56225
                ewinrow
                Participant

                  Hey Bernie, I dilute it, I never use straight ammonia or anything else without diluteing it for a 1st time use. I also thought the same thing. I use it some because I thought it gave the brass a little more shine. Most of the products I use are mostly for de-greasing. That seems to be a biggie with me. I use to use Zep a long time ago when I was working with automobile engines. Non scented and it really worked. But now days I don’t have much faith in it. In the same aspect, I would not use awesome for engine parts. Don’t think it’s strong enough. But mild enough for what we do. Does Zep leave any kind of residue/film or discoloration afterwards? I’ve just never used any scented products. Well got to go and get some sleep for now. Will be talking at cha later. fair well to all.

                  #56226
                  bernie weishapl
                  Participant

                    Ed there is no film on any movements I have cleaned with Zep. It does not discolor any that I have done. Citrus smells kinda good to me anyway. 😆 There is a purple Zep that says don’t use it on brass so you do have to read the labels. Like David said it is actually the oil fromt he peel that creates the scent. My wife uses a orange oil to clean some of our furniture and it looks really nice when she is done.

                    #56227
                    willofiam
                    Moderator

                      Hey guys, been thinking about this thread for awhile and have come to some of my own conclusions.
                      The thing that came to mind was when I had first started out cleaning clocks (horologicaly speaking), I did some web searches on cleaning clock movements and after searching for hours on end I was just as confused as when I started, there is alot of opinions out there about all kinds of elixirs and potions, I too checked out the local hardware store and read all the labels on cleaning solutions, still was not happy. I think I was afraid of the effect a unproven product. I then joined Bobs course, I was amazed that Bob actually give out the formula for mixing up a clock cleaning solution, anywhere else was like pulling teeth to get any info on it…the big secret it seemed to be….I decided that the proper approach was to copy Bobs formula and advice…

                      I mixed up the recommended cleaning solution for awhile, since then I have been using the concentrated clock cleaning solution called Historic timekeepers for a couple of reasons.

                      1. sold on the market as a clock cleaning solution
                      2. is actually cheaper and easier, why? the time it took looking for the right ingredients and mixing it all up.
                      3.I am not a scientist or chemist and do not have the time to conduct a thorough test of products and their effects in a horological setting.

                      I am not promoting Historic timekeepers solution, I am promoting proven products and techniques for horological applications.

                      It may be a initial investment but it is also a proven product. I have cleaned over 400 clocks and purchased a total of 5 gallons of concentrate, doing the math I get 3, 2-1/2 gallons of solution out of approximately $40.00 per gallon of concentrated solution. so it lasts for approximately 26.6 clocks before I change it. As a business the cost per clock is only $1.50 per clock, if I was doing this as a hobby one gallon of concentrate would last several years depending on how enthusiastic I was. I do not see any reason to try and hunt down a alternative, it really wont save you that much money, and as for keeping it simple for newcomers I make the suggestion of sticking with a quality proven product or method. With the pocket watches I use a quality proven product also.
                      I would like to hear what Bob has to say, not only because he is older and grayer but because I believe he has the experience.

                      Thanks for listening, William

                      #56228
                      tmac1956
                      Participant

                        All:

                        Does anyone know a substitute for “OneDip”?

                        Thanks!
                        Tom

                        #56229
                        Bob Tascione
                        Moderator

                          older and grayer

                          Hey! :D Well I guess it won’t do me any good to argue with the truth William!

                          I feel very much the same way that you do about clock cleaning solutions William. As you guys already know I’m a strong advocate of the use of “tried and proven” commercial products and or recipes. I want to point out here though that I can’t take credit for the ‘recipe’ that I show in the videos. That one was around for quite awhile before I made those videos. It’s a good proven mix that does a nice job. The oleac acid can be a pain though as it coagulates when left sitting for a while. I won’t get into the ammonia debate here cuz that can drag on forever. I’ll just say I feel there’s a time that ammonia base can be ‘acceptable’ and a time when it’s not. I also agree with those that feel ammonia damages brass surfaces… and William I do agree that for beginners it’s a very good idea to go with as many tried and proven solutions, techniques and tools as possible since it’s difficult enough just trying to learn this stuff without tossing more unnecessary obstacles in your path. I know that these cleaning solutions can be rather expensive but since cleaning is one of the first things that beginners start out with and the solutions being used can easily make the difference between success or failure then it does seem a wise choice to me to go with something that has been known to work well for many over the years. Once all basic trouble shooting techniques as well as repair techniques such as changing mainsprings, bushings, escapement adjustments etc. are firmly under ones belt then yes, by all means get creative and experiment as much as possible. It’s difficult to make comparisons between one cleaning solution or repair technique over another without having used a different proven solution or technique many times before. There’s always the danger of forming a bad habit without realizing it when we don’t know what a good habit should look like. It’s like my golf swing. I taught myself and now it just doesn’t matter who pitches the golf ball to me, I still miss it! :D

                          I sure don’t want anybody to think I’m saying not to be creative. I’ve always believed – in most cases – a better way to do something can be found. There’s almost always a better way. There’s also always a worse way! Without having some well developed and proven standard to compare to how can we really know?

                          There…all done :)
                          Bob

                          #56230
                          arutha
                          Participant

                            Wise words Bob,
                            I agree with Bob, but I use ammonia, soft soap and water in my ultrasonic (10ml of pure ammonia in 3 ltrs of water), it does what I want it to do and I use such a small amount of ammonia it is unlikely to be doing hardly any, if any damage at all. It is important to make sure the mech is rinsed properly if using ammonia as if you dont it will carry on working on the brass and that is bad. Oleic acid from what I have read is just there to help preserve the cleaned brass, it helps to hold back the tarnish. I have got some but have not yet tried adding it to my mix yet. If you are happy with what you are using to clean your clocks/watches then that is fine but if you are unsure what effect the chemicals may be having on the brass/steel then do a little research on the net, it dont take long and its always best to know you are not doing any damage.

                            Tom,
                            I posted a while back about using brake and clutch cleaner instead of one-dip. It is basically the same stuff, trichloroethylene. Dries fast and doesn’t leave any residue. I have been using it for a couple of years now and I don’t know about where you are but 5 litres of this stuff in the UK works out around the same price as one tiny pot of one-dip. It is also great for degreasing and removal of wd40 before going in the cleaning solution. I also use it for nasty mainsprings before cleaning them off and re-lubing. It evaporates very quickly and a cereal bowl full left out overnight will be gone by the morning so air tight lids on things for storage. Its not good to use it bare skinned, prolonged exposure every day can lead to liver problems so wear nitrile gloves as it doesn’t melt those but it will melt latex gloves. It also comes in aerosol cans which are handy for keeping my breath fresh :)
                            paul.

                            #56231
                            bernie weishapl
                            Participant

                              I also agree that when starting out and new to clock repair the best thing is to use tried and true. I did when I started. Historic has been around for some time now. I started with I think the same stuff or something similar. After 30 some years of doing clocks I have experimented with several different cleaning solutions. I used to mix my own which was dawn dish washing soap, household ammonia and Murphys soap. Used it for several years but just wasn’t satisfied with it. Several years ago I had bought some equipment and bought some of this zep citrus cleaner to clean it up. It did a great job and removed the old grease and oil. I thought I would try it on clocks. It did a great job so that is what I have used for the last few years.

                              #56232
                              tmac1956
                              Participant

                                @david pierce wrote:

                                I have used naptha in my ultrasonic for awhile and it does a pretty good job. I buy it by the gallon from Home Depot and it is a lot less expensive than the well known designer label watch cleaner. The problem I have had with watches is some watches that have been sitting around for awhile form white waxy globs that are difficult to dissolve. Sometimes I will pull a part out of the ultrasonic cleaner and it looks spotless but when I put it under a microscope I see them, especially around the balance jewel. This should not present a problem for a clock because a clock has so much power compared to a watch. The globs will probably prove beneficial and help lubricate the moving parts. They look like tiny white grease balls. For hairsprings I run them in the ultrasonic with naptha and then rinse them in laquer thinner. I lay them on a piece of paper towel to dry. I do not put the laquer thinner in the ultrasonic cleaner. I did finally get an L & R spin cleaner and had a tough time finding jars that would take the basket. I ended up getting Ball Pint Jars (with lids) and had to twist off the three little knobs on the basket. I will have to make some plastic inserts to align the jars in the holes in the base of the L&R cleaner.
                                david

                                I am seeing those globs as well. Interestingly, I see them more often on old pieces. I wonder if it might be residue from whale oil lubrications… I would like to know from wence this stuff comes. :?

                                Thanks!
                                Tom

                                #56233
                                tmac1956
                                Participant

                                  David:

                                  I found an old book (available free in PDF) printed in the late 1800’s on the topic of lubrication. One of the lubricants discussed was paraffin based. I wonder if what I am seeing in these old single plate pocket watches is what’s left from that stuff. They show pictures of small whales and porpoises where they open up their heads and drain off the oil. They also have pictures of the processing plants.

                                  Strange…

                                  Later,
                                  Tom

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