Balance wheel position

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  • #48895
    mclark3617
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    • Topics Started: 28
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    Im working on a swiss bar movement were the balance spring slides through a hole and is locked in by a pin wedged in the hole, my question is were the balance wheel will be at rest, im assuming to the point were it sets the lever in the center position. Would i be correct?

    #56061
    david pierce
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 90
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    McLark,
    When watchmakers take these things apart they put marks on the balance wheel in order to get a good starting point when the mechanism is reassembled. Bob shows this in his pocket watch repair video. This is great advice because it works. I don’t want to confuse anyone with my own personal thought about where this goes but it is not clear to me why it would matter where the balance wheel itself would be. When the watch is in beat (tick = tock) I see it as the relationship of the hairspring coller to the impulse pin, not the wheel itself. Maby Bob will step in and explain this because every experienced watchmaker is extremely concerned about the relationship of the hairspring collar to the wheel and I have never seen anyone mark the position of the impulse pin. I view the wheel as a spinning flywheel and I do not see why its orientation would have any bearing on the timing; only the relationship of the spring to the impulse pin.
    david

    #56062
    randy
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 39
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    At rest, you will want your impulse jewel to sit in the pallet fork horns, and yes,..you want it (the pallet fork) to be centered.
    That adds insurance that the watch will be “in beat”,..and will start easily within a few winds.
    So however you have to move the hairspring/collar group to attain that, is what you are shooting for.
    I mark both where the stud sits, and which way the impulse jewel faces..just to be safe.
    On a two arm balance, it is the “norm” to have the roller jewel ( impulse pin ) sitting at right angles to the arms.

    I can’t trust my memory when I’m working on more than one at a time…
    Best,

    Randy

    #56063
    mclark3617
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 28
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    Thanks guys, the hairspring collar was not removed, but there is no clamp pin on the end of this hairspring, it just feeds into a hole on the balance cock,,,so i can position were the at rest position is, i chose to the point were the pallet fork was centered, now all i have to do is get that little pin in the hole to pin the hairspring.

    I also noticed the balance wheel was not paralel to the body, but seems to move freely. Is this a normal sitiation?

    #56064
    willofiam
    Moderator
    • Topics Started: 75
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    hey Mclark3617, where the hairspring sits in the “hole” and pinned is determined by regulating the watch, meaning when the regulating arm is in the center and the watch is keeping correct time then the hairspring is pinned in the proper spot (there are other factors in regulation besides just the hairspring, weight, banking, lock and drop, ect…) . Itis always a good idea to make a mental note of where it was originally pinned.

    as far as getting it in beat the adjustment should be done at the hairspring collar, Like Randy mentioned, @Randy wrote:

    On a two arm balance, it is the “norm” to have the roller jewel ( impulse pin ) sitting at right angles to the arms.

    I am under the impression that when it is lined up like this it will visually aid in adjusting the beat, I am not for certain if there is other reasons. Adjusting the hairspring collar is a delicate and sometimes time consuming process but with some practice is will become easier and less daunting.

    I am not understanding your question here, @Mclark3617 wrote:

    I also noticed the balance wheel was not paralel to the body, but seems to move freely. Is this a normal sitiation?

    Have fun, William

    #56065
    mclark3617
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 28
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    The hairspring was loose when i got it,,that was one of the problems, it looked like the pin was broke cause the ballance was loose,,when i took it apart i found the hairspring on the shaft cocked,,so i reseated it. Then the ballance cock was peened to raise it up,,so it was too high,,i filed down the peens and burs and now it sits properly and the wheel spins free, but looking at the side you can see the balance wheel is not quit paralel to the base, but spins freely.

    I also put it together with the hairspring werever,,just to see,,and the hairspring moves like it should bu does not move the fork,,,im assuming the balance wheel is 180 off, or far enough off to not even touch the fork…

    #56066
    david pierce
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 90
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    Mclark,
    First make sure that the coils are coming out evenly from the hairspring collet. I have pulled those pins out before and I think I would rather get a root canal than do it again. Getting the hairspring back into the hole and inserting the pin is a tough assignment. As far as I know the watch companies have switched to glue to hold the springs in the hole. If you get the pin in and the hairspring is coming out of the collet properly then procede to the next step.
    Draw an imaginary line from the center of the balance wheel pivot to the center of the pallet arm pivot. The impulse jewel should be bisected by that imaginary line with the impulse jewel facing the escape wheel. The pallet fork should surround the jewel and the imaginary line should also bisect the pallet fork arm. As far as is the balance wheel in the “normal” place, there may be one but I do not see why it would make any difference as far as the operation of the watch is concerned. If a particular position is supposed to be determined by convention then you and I will receive a severe written repremand from the watch police. The trick is to adjust the hairspring collar so the impulse jewel sits on this imaginary line when the hairspring is at rest. The final adjustment is made with a watch timing machine.
    david

    #56067
    mclark3617
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 28
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    Being as this hairspring slides through this hole it in a sense makes i adjustable. Now keep in mind the balance wheel hairspring and roller are installed,,,so by how far a pull that hairspring through that hole will adjust were the roller plate is resting in relation to the pallet fork. Like were i have it now so the ballance wheel is moving normally but not touching the fork. But i seems imposible to get a pin in the hole while its mounted,, i have to position it the try to remove it and pin it while out of the watch. Plus there was no pin in this watch, but there is a notch right next to the hole were it looks like the hairspring goes into and get pinched to hold it…that part im not sure about! Ill send a pic if i can get in close enough

    #56068
    randy
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    • Topics Started: 39
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    I think that pictures would help us to help you !
    Not uncommon for someone that had too long a balance staff to peen up metal on the underside of the balance cock to get clearance.
    Odd that you say its not aligned now,..that makes me thing the balance cock is bent….

    #56069
    chris mabbott
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 119
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    I can’t add anything to the sound advise already given, but only second Randy by requesting photos.

    It is also a good practice (at least for me) to take plenty of pics at each stage of disassembly, so that you have a visual reference if much time passes due to waiting for parts etc. Another plus is that if, like now, you have any queries, you can post the photos as you discover the probs on the time keeper.. JMTC

    Chris

    #56070
    mclark3617
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 28
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    Well i got my first watch working,,not great mind you but back from the dead non the less. It was the hairspring off in relation to the roller jewel. I removed the hairspring and adjusted the position, and it now works fine. I still need to fine tune it and clean it. Baby steps

    #56071
    randy
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 39
    • Total Posts: 594

    Congrats !!!!!!!!!!!!

    #56072
    peggy332014
    Participant
    • Topics Started: 20
    • Total Posts: 206

    :D Hi guys! Oh, and Welcome to the forum Mclark3617 ❗ I know you were here before me, but this is the first I saw your name! I will include you on my friend list!

    Anyway, 8-) I so appreciate this post! What a ‘heads-up’ idea for me! I will take pics when I get to start on my first watch! Such a neat idea! That way I can remember where the parts go! A mechanic knows he’s done a good job, when he puts the engine together and discover he’s got parts left over! 😆 😆

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mclark3617Balance wheel position