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  • #49732
    gerene
    Participant

      I am working on this alarm clock , which did not run when I got it from ebay. The movement was very dirty and the mainspring was broken. I replaced the springs, cleaned and lubricated the movement. Now it is ticking for about 20-30 seconds and then stops. I noticed that the escapement is out of beat and wondered what would be the best procedure to correct this.
      The movement has a two crossed arrows mark which would indicate that it is an old Junghans movement.

      Jan

      #63539
      willofiam
      Moderator

        Hey Jan, The beat is adjusted just like a watch, the hairspring should be on a collar that can be twisted to on the balance arbor. Something looks funny in your photo though. The hairspring should pass through the regulating arm slot then pinned, it looks like it is pinned then comes around to the regulating arm slot. William

        #63540
        arutha
        Participant

          Hi Jan,
          I do belive the” crossed arrows” symbol belongs to H.A.C or the Hamburg American Clock Company. Junghans took over H.A.C in around 1930 but still continued to sell clocks under the H.A.C brand name.
          Paul.

          #63541
          gerene
          Participant

            @willofiam wrote:

            Hey Jan, The beat is adjusted just like a watch, the hairspring should be on a collar that can be twisted to on the balance arbor. Something looks funny in your photo though. The hairspring should pass through the regulating arm slot then pinned, it looks like it is pinned then comes around to the regulating arm slot. William

            Thanks William, that’s what I thought but I wanted to make sure.
            I must say that you have a very good observation to see those details on a picture! You are right the hairspring is not mounted correctly.

            Jan

            #63542
            gerene
            Participant

              @Arutha wrote:

              Hi Jan,
              I do belive the” crossed arrows” symbol belongs to H.A.C or the Hamburg American Clock Company. Junghans took over H.A.C in around 1930 but still continued to sell clocks under the H.A.C brand name.
              Paul.

              That is correct Paul. In fact HAC was founded by Erhard Junghans’ son in law Paul Landenburger in 1876, it was then called “Landenburger und Lang”. The name was changed to HAC in 1883. At least that is what I could find out about it.

              I llike to do some research on the origin and background of the timepieces I work on 8-)

              Jan

              #63543
              gerene
              Participant

                Another question I have: what would be a good amplitute for this kind of movement?
                Currently the amplitute is very low, but I don’t know what can be expected.

                Jan

                #63544
                willofiam
                Moderator

                  Hey Jan, I am not exactly sure on the amplitude and have not found any information that suggests what it should be. The ones I have worked on have had approximately (cannot remember for sure) 280- 320 total degrees of amplitude which I think is pretty good for these (I may be high on that #). I talked with Arutha about it also and he was saying the same thing. Unless someone out there has a better answer for you I would guess that if you got it in that area and tested it for timekeeping you will be o.k. If you have trouble getting good amplitude let us know. Have a great day. William

                  #63545
                  bernie weishapl
                  Participant

                    I believe William is right. The few I have worked on have been around 275 to 320.

                    #63546
                    gerene
                    Participant

                      Thanks guys for the information. I only have about 50-60° of amplitude. So way too low, as I expected.
                      I will try to get it higher. See what we can get out of it!
                      I alread replaced the main spring, so I would believe that it is not the driving force, but rather that too much force is lost in the movement.

                      I’ll keep you informed.

                      Jan

                      #63547
                      dave booth
                      Participant

                        If the balance swing is too small, I’d lay my money on problems with the pivots and cones. Obviously, someone had that balance wheel out of there, or the hairspring would not have been all weirded out. betcha the end shake is not right, and there is a strong likelihood there is dirt in the point of the cones. The other real big culprit in these little pin pallet clocks is wear on the pins. Often, you will see an actual groove worn into one or both pins where the escape wheel teeth lock. Sometimes, you can get away with slipping the pin a little deeper into the lever and slipping he escape wheel slightly on its arbor, to get away from the groove. Be careful manipulating those pins; they are usually glass hard.

                        #63548
                        gerene
                        Participant

                          Thanks Dave for your explanation. Currently I don’t have time to work on clocks, so it is still sitting there waiting for me to do something. I will check your suggestions as soon as I can get back to it and let you know what I found.
                          Thanks again for your input, it is certainly appreciated.

                          #63549
                          gerene
                          Participant

                            I finally had the time to look at this clock again and trying to get the amplitude up. I cleaned it once more (just to make sure ;) ), rebushed the pivot holes but had no success, still very low amplitude.
                            I examined the anchor and found it was verry worn out. A distinct groove was present. So I polished the anchor’s impuls faces untill they were smooth again, making sure not to change the angles. Of course now the drop is too much and there is no provision to lower the anchor to the escape wheel. As you can see in the picture, there are already two holes for the escapewheel, so I guess that someone in the past already moved the escape wheel to accomodate for the same thing. I could do the same and replant the train once more but somehow I feel that it is not the best solution. In my opinion it would be better to make a new anchor. What do you guys think would be better. I know that this small clock is probably not worth the effort, but I am just playing and don’t need to make money on it.

                            #63550
                            dave booth
                            Participant

                              If I were a betting man, I’d bet someone switched out the escape wheel at some point in the clock’s life. But that shouldn’t be a big deal, assuming that it ran after that was done. I would do three things: First, I’d check the escape wheel to see if all the teeth were the same length, and not “sharked” (i.e. worn or bent at the tip); and second, I’d take a close look at the balance assembly, to be certain the arbor was running properly, and that the hairspring was true in both the round and the flat. If you are a member of the National group, look for posts in their forum by Dave Labounty. He has some very good articles he has written over the years, covering hair springing and escapement work for small clocks. (I copied and pasted them into my computer as word documents, but hesitate to post them here, for fear of copyright infringement issues.)

                              The third option I’d consider, is making a new anchor. Making an anchor is not an insurmountable task. The most difficult part is getting the lock and impulse faces at exactly the right angle, and polished. There is lots of information available online for the mathematics of escapement layout; all you need do is figure out exactly which kind of layout applies to your particular clock, and follow the layout procedures.

                              Here is a photo of my setup for checking the escape wheel on an English tall clock. You can use essentially the same method with yours. If you don’t have a lathe, any means of chucking it in a pair of runners will do. It could be something as simple as two pieces of wood clamped upright, with indentations in each, to hold the ends of the arbor. You don’t need a dial indicator, either. all you need is a fixed point to set against the end of a tooth, so you can rotate the wheel, and compare tooth heights. (incidentally, you can see two minor problems in this photo: there is a noticeable indentation in one leaf of the escape wheel pinon; and someone ahead of me soldered a replacement tooth into the escape wheel. If you look at it carefully, you can see they did not get it exactly the same form as the rest. a little judicious Emory board work soon put that right, and I was able to move the third wheel slightly on its arbor, to make it bear on an unworn portion of the pinon. I didn’t feel that my skills are up to making and welding in a replacement leaf, and since the clock is original back to the late 1700’s , didn’t want to go replacing parts willy-nilly.)

                              #63551
                              gerene
                              Participant

                                Thanks Dave for your extensive reply.
                                I did check the balance and hairspring and they seem allright to my (untrained) eye.
                                It might be possible that someone replaced the escape wheel. I will follow your suggestions and check the teeth of the escape wheel. FYI, I do have a lathe and a dial indicator, so I guess I will be able to do some decent checking here 8-)
                                I still believe the anchor might have to be replaced (just my feeling ;) ). To better understand the layout and math behind escapements I ordered W. J. Gazeley’s book about escapements and I am looking forward to read it.
                                In the mean time I will look into the escape wheel and balance!
                                Thanks again.

                                #63552
                                gerene
                                Participant

                                  Hi Dave,
                                  I am trying to locate the posts of LaBounty on the NAWCC forum, but he has posted an impressive amount :)
                                  Would it be possible to send me the word documents by email, if Bob or maybe William would send you my email address?

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