Having proper training can help anyone but the training still doesnt deal with a persons attitude and work ethic. I agree David, with a lot of the swiss stuff you are paying for the name. Just as a side note Bergeon sell a watchmakers vice that retails at around £300. I bought the exact same vice without the Bergeon badge for £15. It does make you wonder! The other funny thing is there does only seem to be good or bad horologists, there never seems to be anything inbetween.